Thank you Reb Muttel for sharing,

Thinking a bit about this since also reading Gibor's question about women at work.

I like what you write "aren't there for us to gaze at". For me, I think part of my thought process is that it's like stealing. It's not mine. It's not just about me, it's about them too. This belongs to them, and just like I wouldn't take their purse, I'm not going to 'take' their body either. There is no 'just' in looking, it harms both me and them. 

Someone might say the certain women or circumstances would lead you to conclude that they do want you to 'take' their body - but that's more than likely because there is something broken or amiss inside them, and not something almost anyone truly wants. 

Besides shemiras einayim and kedusha, it's also common decency. I have a harder time with drawing lines, so across-the-board mentalities work best for me. I'm not focusing too much on if this is a man or woman, attractive or not - I don't need to look too much at anyone and I can try to talk to everyone just as a person. Separate the gender from the interaction. I'm not looking or thinking, because right now you aren't even female. Within reason of course, it's not easy to maintain so it works best to mitigate and use for brief periods as needed. It might also be harder if the person is overly provocative and that overpowers your mental capabilities. #1 is avoidance. 

Thank you for the insight that allowed me to process these ideas a little more.
Continued hatzlacha

BenHashemBH wrote on 26 Sep 2024 14:43:

It's very hard to think of looking as "taking something." Because it really truly does not harm them. Zeh nehneh v'zeh lo chasar. 

Now, get caught looking and you'll probably find out that they do view it as offensive, and think you're a creep. But it's a difficult worldview to inculcate. 

chosemyshem wrote on 26 Sep 2024 15:08:

The halfway old-timers might remember sleepy (later known as sleeepy) and the heavy back and forth on this topic.

I'm very skeptical of the long term efficacy of this mehalech. It goes against human nature and how Hashem created us. Hashem designed it so that we are drawn and are attracted to the female physique and everything about them. There's nothing rational about that attraction.

Are you horny for a female rabbit? No? But male rabbits sure are! But there's nothing sexual about them! It's just a rabbit! The male rabbit looks at your hot neighbor and can't understand what your struggle is! There's nothing sexual about her at all! It's just another scary human! Who was once a baby!

There is a reason why nature works this way, of course. To work against that and convince yourself that, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakshully, women are disgusting/smelly/cranky/poopy/human, is like trying to swim upstream while masturbating.

Maybe it can help in the beginning stages of breaking free to help shake off the ingrained habits, but I don't see how going against nature could be successful in the long term. For you might try to train your brain to say ew ew ew, but in a weak moment your oblivious groin will say yum yum yum. And then you'll beat yourself up for desiring something so "disgusting", as you've trained your brain to think that way.

What I found that works for me is being very aware of how I will feel like after I indulge. I will feel like garbage. It will hurt how I think about my wife. I will desire something that I'll never have. So why torture myself? That kind of self talk directly addresses the emotional pull of lust, instead of trying to intellectualize it.

Again, perhaps different strokes for different folks, but count me skeptical.

chosemyshem wrote on 26 Sep 2024 15:08:

The kind of unhealthy attention they get from lusting men.

If what they don't know doesn't hurt them, how far does that go, invading privacy and taking their dignity?
Peeping Tom.
Undressing someone that's unconscious.
CV taking advantage of someone when their seichel is compromised, though they won't remember. 
The ruler who preserved the woman's body in honey. 

I don't focus on getting caught or what they would think, because I know. 

If I steal $100 from Jeff Bezos, he couldn't tell, he might not eve care, but I still took it. 

It might be easy to rationalize looking as basically harmless, so I'm not saying it works for everyone,  but it works for me. 

Bennyh wrote on 26 Sep 2024 16:02:

Reb Benny,
I'm in agreement with what you are saying. I don't find the female body disgusting or unattractive. I'm avoiding / blocking the thought of assessing them entirely.

BenHashemBH wrote on 26 Sep 2024 16:22:

You probably don't pirate movies either lol.

I'll bite though. Invasion of privacy is generally considered a tort. Halachically, hezek re'iyah does not exist for non-jews and may be a chok. But there appears to be a general principle of human behavior, a "natural law" if you prefer, that values the ability to undertake activities in privacy. This principle results in legal prohibitions against breeching privacy. 

So a "peeping Tom" or a guy leaving a camera in the bathroom, has breached that principle both legally and morally. He will be jailed and vilified. Someone who gropes an unconscious woman has breached that privacy taboo, as well as even more deeply rooted ideas of personal bodily autonomy.

But we're not talking about that. We're talking about looking at what is on display already. It has nothing to do with "well they don't know and probably wouldn't mind." The looker has done nothing to them, and possibly the only difference between him and any other person on the street is his personal internal degree of lust. 

I'm not justifying looking. I'm saying that it's hard to view it as an problem based on the effects on the other person when there are no effects on the other person. When the only wrong is an internal feeling of lust, it's an internal problem.

Bennyh wrote on 26 Sep 2024 16:02:

I wasn't clear. When I speak of parts of women unattractive, I am not trying to say "don't be attracted!" I am attracted to my wife even with her very human tendencies. Rather, I am trying to drill into myself that they are deeper than skin deep sex toys. They are a complete human beings with parts that I don't like that just make them human-like. Not to say they aren't attractive, but if I can see they are a complete human, I won't view them sexually. 

Being attracted is different than viewing someone sexually. 

Hope I'm clearer now!
Muttel

Muttel wrote on 26 Sep 2024 17:04:

What I’m saying is that your primordial brain will inevitably view them sexually, whether you tell yourself otherwise or not, because it is רצון ה׳ in the בריאה for your brain to view them that way. 

This shprach of “just humanize them” implies that it’s wrong/immoral/misogynistic if you view a woman sexually. And while to a certain extent that’s true, because they’re certainly not only sexual beings, they still very much are sexual beings.

When you view them sexually, you’re interpreting the situation correctly. Twisting your mind into pretzel to tell yourself that they’re “full human beings” will not convince your lizard brain that it doesn’t see what it sees.

chosemyshem wrote on 26 Sep 2024 16:36:

I appreciate your response Shem, and I'm trying to understand where the line is.
What is considered on display?
A kallah under the chuppah wanting to look beautiful for her wedding
A wardrobe malfunction
A woman who naturally has a certain body type and just isn't wearing a garbage bag to hide it
I forgot to close my window shade

Just like if I was in my house, these are things I would not want others to observe with lust. 

Is it fair game because they made a choice or mistake? What's the distinction between looking with no fence or through a hole in the fence? If it's the thought of the perceived that they have privacy, then it should apply also to a (non negligent) wardrobe malfunction. I can't figure out where precisely invasion of privacy shifts to on display.

Thank you

Muttel wrote on 26 Sep 2024 14:10:

Muttel   not sure which planet you live on,

buy my girls dont have these issues,

not saying there toys, but sure verry sexy.

in my opinion to process correctly muttals post and this whole idea................one must listen to DOVs shiur on the inyan, its deep and takes lots of thought in order to process it and live it.

Bennyh wrote on 26 Sep 2024 17:17:

We can agree to disagree :-)

guardyoureyes.com/tools/kosher-isle/shiurim/category/dov-s-recovery-talks" option="guardyoureyes.com/tools/kosher-isle/shiurim/category/dov-s-recovery-talks">Dov's Recovery Talks



The struggle of looking at "Her"



Lust kills love...why?

BenHashemBH wrote on 26 Sep 2024 17:49:

I think fundamentally I'm arguing that it doesn't really matter what I, or she, wants. The question is if I have harmed her. And violating someone's "wants" alone is not a harm. (Or if it is a harm, it is certainly nowhere near the level of stealing something from them.) A harm is an objective standard, set by the Torah, society, or some random moral feeling depending on your worldview.* 

You raised some interesting edge cases, all of which I think would not be considered a harm, barring the example of the open window. And for me, trying to associate my gaze with stealing from her just won't do anything. 

*And this is a frum forum, and we all agree that the Torah is what defines a harm. I'm no rabbi, just someone with an artscroll bava kama, but I'm pretty sure the Torah considers embarrassing someone or looking into their private spaces types of harm, but not gazing with lust at a woman. I concede that drawing attention to a woman's wardrobe malfunction by staring at it would likely embarrass her and therefore be a type of harm. But let's assume no one else notices, then I think you didn't harm her an iota al pi halacha.

Reb Muttel, we have never shmoozed but you are an inspiration. 
A real warrior. 
I have through your 'entire story' and watched you grow while sharing your deepest emotions. 


I do agree with the 'women are human' concept. 

In my yeshiva in the early 2000's, someone had a picture of a famous singer on his wall (yes it was that type of yeshiva!). Her name is BS if anyone is asking ! 
Anyways, she looked beautiful, perfect makeup and flawless skin. In my teenaged mind, she was perfection. The fantasies were......better left unsaid! 
And at some point I realized, she as human as the rest of us. She used the bathroom and it probably doesn't smell so great afterwards, she has morning breath, and for sure doesn't look so good without makeup. And the picture is definitely touched up with Photoshop. 
Basically women aren't some kind of goddesses, they are human like the rest of us. They have body hair and need to shower, they need to work on their hair otherwise it's a mess. Just humans. 

Sometimes the lust takes us down a silly path of putting these women on pedestals, but the guy married to the pretty woman in the grocery store is definitely not having as much fun as we imagine he is having. He's probably dealing with the same shalom bayis issues all men are dealing with. 
The vast majority of people on this site find their wives attractive and that doesn't make them want to sleep with us any more than we imagine a pretty woman is with her husband. 

If only there was a great big kashering pot for our filthy brains!!!! (Maybe that's what GYE is. I'm here to find out) 


Anyways Reb muttel, Hatzlacha on your journey. 
May Hashem bless you with the koach to continue SHTEIGING in destroying the yetzer hara and being metaher yourself.