Dov wrote on 07 Jun 2023 19:38:

Amen
כן יהי רצון

 the question regarding alcohol is

“Am I addicted to weed and turn to alcohol when I can’t get my drug of choice, or am I an addict in the general sense?”

as in, whenever I am feeling like I am overwhelmed with my life I turn to  something that will numb  my pain with a preference for one drug, but not discriminating when I can get my hand and others. I never have, nor am I interested in using opiates or cocaine, or other such hard drugs.

iLoveHashem247 wrote on 07 Jun 2023 20:24:

Dont know if this answers your question...

I have heard from several fellows in SA that when they got sober from lust they found no need to turn to alcohol or other drugs. They have explained that they were actually turning to these substances to cope with all the shame and unmanageability their sexaholisim has caused them.

Dont know if/how this would apply to you or if it is helpful but thought i would share...

Shmuel wrote on 07 Jun 2023 20:38:

So I’m not sure if that strengthens or we can do the points. On the one hand, I could say that nobody is an alcoholic alone, rather whoever calls himself an alcoholic, or for that case, even a sexaholic is in reality an addict.

or, perhaps you can say that based on someone’s main escape mechanism, that would be what defines the nature of the addiction, but the approach toward resolving the underlying issues will be the same

iLoveHashem247 wrote on 07 Jun 2023 20:24:

The first step of alcoholics Anonymous does not read "powerless against alcohol."  Instead, it reads "powerless  over alcohol." And it's not a word game, but very specific and clear. Even more important, it's honest: what defines an addict is what effect the drug has on the person when they use it. Bill w asks this question of inquirers, in his big book. (I paraphrase) "Can you drink alcohol successfully? Then you aren't an addict." He refers to it as drinking like a gentleman. Normal people, non-alcoholics in other words, can drink successfully. They never wreck their lives by starting to drink. Because they don't end up having to overdo it. But alcoholics drink when they're really not supposed to, when it does them harm. They waste time drinking when they have no time to spare. They start drinking when they can't really afford to get drunk and end up drunk anyhow. The people in their lives go through hell because of their drinking. They destroy their integrity one piece at a time because they have to hide their drinking and lie about it. It's not something they can do and keep living normally, at the same time. And the same thing applies to sexaholics. Even if a sexaholic person (such as myself) is an otherwise good, frum person: He or she cannot engage in erotic adventure successfully. Practically every time the sexaholic tries to do that, trouble ensues. Either the person deepens their double life because of the hiding and lying they need to do, or they go way overboard and frequently surprise themselves. "Last time, right after it came out, I felt so sure I would never ever do this again... How the hell did I end up back here again...or worse?"  A sexaholic tries to do teshuva, and it never works for him or her. Every time the sexaholic tries to do teshuva, they end up on a super high, a high that really only makes them bored when things are normal! And leads back to a feeling that they need more sex adventure, eventually. (I posted about this on guard your eyes nearly 15 years ago. The post was called 'the nuclear reset button', and guard reposted it many, many times in his chizzuk newsletters, of old). Teshuvah only works for normals. It does not work for addicts. In the end, it just ends up reinforcing the cycle after a brief respite. Oh well. Chazal already told us Derech Eretz kodma laTorah, and they were right. Recovery is before Torah and anything like religious avodas Hashem - It's referred to in the second step as 'sanity', for this reason. And it's not the same thing as sobriety, at all.

The addict's problem is not drinking/using the drug as you keep implying in your posts. The defining thing isn't that the addict keeps using and can't seem to stop. That's only what gets our attention that something's wrong. Everybody has temptation and many (even non-addicts) have very poor willpower. Many normal people are immature and just don't know how to say 'no' very well. But what distinguishes the addicts are: 1-  he or she cannot successfully drink/use, because using the drug has a different effect on them than it has on others. The only solution to that is complete abstinence from the drug. There is no other answer. An alcoholic who comes to Step 1 has admitted that he cannot moderate his drinking. He gives up on every being able to learn how to moderate his drinking. He knows, finally, that he can never afford to drink ever again and surrenders alcohol. Same with a sexaholic exactly. A sexaholic realizes that engaging in erotic adventure is just not going to work for him or her. Whenever he or she engages in a little erotic adventure for any reason, it ends up taking over his marriage bed, bathroom time, study time, etc, and it will be done to an excess he cannot afford...until that same horrible bottom is hit yet again. We need support from other real live human beings who are sober, in order to succeed with this. I am clean for 26 years and go to meetings on a regular basis where I meet many other people who I've become friends with who are sober for many years, as well. In the beginning, those associations are absolutely essential and there's no way to do that by Zoom, on the phone or any other nonsense. I need real people that I can see otherwise I don't believe it's possible. And no matter how powerful Hashem is, He never gives us the power to use lust (erotic adventuring) successfully or for the alcoholic to drink successfully. We remain powerless and never get that power at all. Hoping to get the power to be able to drink a little bit ever again, means the alcoholic hasn't surrendered alcohol at all, yet. Same for the sexaholic. If I'm hoping that one day Hashem gives me the power to be like most normal people and purposely excite myself a little bit, watch a little bit of porn, etc, all that means is that I have not surrendered my drug yet. I'm powerless and over the drug. Not against it mind you, but over it. That's the only point of Step 1, and that is all powerlessness really refers to. 
2- We have fallen in love with using the drug and obsess about it in our minds and hearts when we are bored, too happy, too sad, worried, etc, and need a reprieve from that obsession. For this we need a miracle. And as Bill  discovered and wrote about in his Big Book, so have we sexaholics found out, that: Hashem does grant us a daily reprieve - if we really have surrendered our drug and sincerely want to let go of any mental obsessing about it - and that reprieve is contingent on our maintenance of our spiritual condition - which brings me to the third problem an addict has:
3- We hate way too much of life. Too many things destroy our inner peace. We are, in some things, insatiable, unsatisfiable, entitled, self-centered, and arrogant. Of course, non addicts have these same problems, too. All the mussar sforim are full of these things. But addicts seem to need a little bit of a different approach to reach the place where they make peace with G-d's will, in other words with life on life's terms. Reality is a tough one, for us. We tend to need a spiritual approach that most normal people don't really need. We need to connect to something a bit higher than most people need to connect to, otherwise we're down in the cesspool. Others don't quite have that experience. And that's what steps 2-11 are mostly about.

Have you ever wondered why 11 of the 12 steps don't even mention alcohol? Why there is no place anywhere in the Big Book of AA any instructions or suggestions at all for how to quit drinking? None. And none of the 12 Steps work on quitting drinking.

Step 1 addresses the first problem alcoholics have, above. It's the surrender step regarding the drug. Steps 2-11 address the second and third problems above. They are the Steps regarding real life. 

Any questions?  I have privately messaged you before that talking this over on the phone will make a lot more sense than writing back and forth. There's just too much more detail to explain and too much more to talk about in terms of application of any of these ideas, to do this justice in writing. So far, that hasn't happened. And so far, you've gone to alcoholics Anonymous meetings instead of meeting other chronic masturbators, in person, in meetings. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I'm just basing it on what I see you wrote above. Popping into one meeting and making a grand admission is something, but it's only the barest start. Sexaholics Anonymous meetings are safe for serious people. What changes and makes the big difference when we actually meet our peers who do the same things we do and admit it openly on a regular, ongoing basis, isn't that we get to finally face other people. It's that we finally face ourselves. Until then, we rarely do face ourselves truly, no matter how honest we think we are. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown that last bit in because it might be an annoying thing to hear. But I'm happy to explain what I mean by that. Just not here in writing. It would just take too much time and wouldn't get clear in the end, anyhow.

Hatzlocha ❤️

Hi Dov, thank you for the detailed response! 

I’ve been going to AA daily for two weeks and plan on going every day for 90 days at least. I’ve gone to SA before but I did not feel like it was the best forum for me as it did not address the main area of my “addiction struggles” which are more substance related. Nor did I feel it was an appropriate forum for me as there were discussions of acting out in a way I never would have imagined and put all kinds of ideas in my head that would not have been there otherwise. Not so with AA, where I am able to identify and relate to the attendees’ struggles and challenges on a personal level to a greater extent. 

Ultimately the struggles and the acting out overlap, but I feel that for me and for anyone else, the appropriate venue is the one which addresses the MO that resonates with one’s acting out the most. 

I believe that SA, AA, OA, and “fill-in-the-blank-Anonymous” are all excellent programs. But just like the diagnosis of the addiction must be a self diagnosis, so too must the decision of  which forum to make use of be self-directed, as the person that knows himself best is oneself. 

I am fortunate to have mentors who know me and my family pretty well, and have guided me throughout the process of overcoming my addictions and other challenges. These mentors (including my personal Rav who I’ve known from shortly before my marriage) have guided me through the process of gaining clarity on  to how to treat, and within which forum to treat (and just as importantly where not to).  I have learned to trust the guidance of those who I’ve become close to and upon whose guidance I have relied.

Yep, writing sure isn't the place to discuss this. I said my peace above, some points that you bring up are very well-known concerns. Self-diagnosed? Definitely that's a thing. The only person who can decide and admit that they aren't able to use their drug the way normals can, is the person themselves. I absolutely and totally agree with that, If that's what you mean. But your entire definition of an addict as a person who can't resist it and fight it without help, is literally missing the main point of 12 steps recovery. It's the way most Rabbonim (and even many therapists) approach addiction as a problem - the problematic act or behavior that needs to be avoided is their focus. I'm not certain if most of what I wrote above about what powerlessness really refers to is even registering yet. But yes, the approach you're referring to in most of your posts is indeed what GYE is all about: learning how to finally resist it and stay clean. Which is not wood alcoholics Anonymous is about. Sure, you'll get a different message if you hang around with people with a few weeks or months of sobriety, but practically all the old timers will speak a different language, bH. Try listening to Sandy Beach's talks (Sandy , for example. I know a bunch of roshei kolel and significant talmidei chachomim who've only discovered sobriety after understanding what he's talking about and taking action. I would love to speak with you Rov directly and get a chance to share my experience and hear his so that we can both learn from each other. 

Is it fair for me to ask if you have a sponsor? Usually getting a sponsor who has at least a few years of sobriety, is what separates the ones who want to get better from the ones who want to just learn what they can from the 12 steps and do it their own way. A lot of people need a very slow and gentle approach. Taking things step by step and staying basically within the comfort zone is the only way they can possibly make it through this challenge. I respect what you've done until now and have no way to know what's best for you. All I can do is share some ideas. I'm very happy for your wife to have a person who is trying and I'm happy for you to have a wife who is patient. ❤️ You're very lucky man.

Thank you everyone for your responses and comments

 would like to note that I’m using this thread more as a personal journal of my journey to sobriety and mental health 

 feel free to continue replying and commenting as it adds flavor and insight to this personal journal

 please note that I am seeking to pursue my growth journey primarily face to face with the people in the support groups I have chosen, and am unable to delve to deeply into forum discussions

thank you everyone for your presence here

do come back! 

Woops. No problem. Understood fully.Ciao and hatzlocha and lots of love

Dov wrote on 08 Jun 2023 03:42:

@Dov, I think you should subscribe to another thread or two, even by mistake; this way we could hear your pearls of wisdom regardin' multiple wives, your wife makin' porn videos for husband to watch, gay groom disclosin' to his wife by the yichud room, and the best of all: if one reads a thread on Gye and it is so erotic and excitin' that it causes him to masturbate with ejaculation heaven forbid, does he still need to pay his chopstick-oath of $180 to Gye, as they were the true culprit for the unzippin' of his pants?

Dov wrote on 08 Jun 2023 00:29:

Dov at his very best, every word mind you!!

Dov wrote on 08 Jun 2023 00:29:


One of the points you  bring up here  about the high that leads to boredom is something that I had been discussing recently with a fellow AA. We have been accustomed to seeking out excitement and intensity in our lives to such an extent that when things start to become normal unstable, we got bored and look for another, more intense, ____aholic experience. Part of the long list of things I have been thinking about over the past two weeks is that it’s OK to have a normal quiet and stable life. In fact, that’s the goal!

I can intensely enjoy my kids swinging in the playground or intensely enjoy going on a walk with my wife. I don’t need to flavor it with anything else.

Kind of like when I got married and started eating the food that my wife cooks without any salt. It was not yummy in the beginning, but overtime I learned to enjoy, and to savor the actual flavors in the food she cooked. Now, her chicken soup on Friday night is the tastiest thing I have all week

 Dov, I appreciate you

Dov, you requested that ILH be in touch with you directly - it accomplishes more than the writing back and forth. That may be true. However, if that were the case, none of us would have read your masterpiece post. Thanks for sharing your knowledge in a clear thought-provoking manner. As we know, there are many silent "lurkers" that read the forums but do not post. We can assume that many have viewed or will view your comments. One can assume that it will be the impetus for at least some of them to get the help they need.

Today I thanked Gd that my day was finally over

When I  woke up in the first thought that came into my mind was let’s F this all up.  Destroy everything, escape!

Then I called my sponsor, who didn’t answer and then I called every other person on my contacts from AA until I got through to to a few people

And then went  for a long hard bike ride

 didn’t go to minyan or say amida for days already

 but I’m opening a conversation with Him. 

i poured my heart out today for a minute or so, but it was more of a conversation that I’ve had with Hashem than during traditional davening in years

I felt like everything sucked today

 It is emotionally exhausting to say NO while the call of the void is whispering yes, yes, yes! in my ear all day

 but one of the guys I spoke to told me that days like this are what gives guys like us the ability to get through life without drugging or drinking

 yay…

iLoveHashem247 wrote on 09 Jun 2023 01:20:

Sounds painful and dispiriting! 

I know nothing about what you are going through, but when it comes to these addictions, it needs to hurt more in order to get better.

All the pain that used to be chased away artificially will need to be faced. It will need to be lived with. It will need to be experienced in full brutality. Then, only then, is there a way to move past it.

My friend, view the pain as medicine. Its not pain you may happen to experience on your way to recovery, it is pain you must endure as an integral and central part of your recovery. 

Hatzlacha!

Well you made it through the day without burning down the town, and some days that’s really the only accomplishment there is, so good job today