Hakolhevel wrote on 05 Mar 2021 04:15:

Thanks for the kind words!

Your life's focus must always be on the positive. You absolutely can't go around the whole day concentrating on what you're not going to do. Someone who does that is simply not living, and of course it can't work. The first thing is to make sure you know what you are trying to do with your life and then you can concentrate on accomplishing that goal and starting to really live. 

Grant400 wrote on 04 Mar 2021 21:24:

Moshe Rabenu when he went up to get the Torah...

Angels don't eat either for that matter...

Oh, and Moshe Rabenu separated from his wife as well, so it may actually be connected.

What I find interesting is how Simcha Feurman, in his "Chosson Shmuz" series uses this story to prove the opposite point. He uses the leniencies that Rav Moshe was willing to use in order to keep families together to show that marriage without sex in considered unmanageable. I am still not sure the relevance of what Rav Moshe actually did himself. I mean, what about any gadol today who significantly outlives their wives?

I love the dialogue. Still don't think it has much to do with us, but appreciate everyone's opinion. 
Whether or not sex is a need (I know it's not), we were definitely created with strong desires for sex. I don't think anyone can argue that.
The discussion here really is, how much can we, normal people, be expected to withstand that urge?
I would like to say that since masturbation is prohibited by the Torah (let's not argue that now), God is basically saying we (even regular non-gedolim) can withstand it infinitely.
The question remains if I really believe that, or if I just say that I know it to be true, but don't really believe it.

wilnevergiveup wrote on 05 Mar 2021 05:23:

Hmmm, if anything, I think this proves the opposite point.
Even regular people R"L lose their wives, and I don't assume that someone who's not a gadol is masturbating for 20 years. It would seem like it is attainable even for "regular people"...? Or is that only for "old" people who have decreased sexual drive?
A short while ago there was an 80 year old widower who posted here asking if it's assur for him to masturbate, but I don't like to project and assume that all 80 year olds have this issue.

bm263 wrote on 05 Mar 2021 07:43:

100% correct! 

I think the main point that @Bego was making is that we cannot make blanket statements that something is either one way or the other. By singling out someone who accomplished something extraordinary doesn't prove that it's manageable for others and what I was pointing out is that we may find even more regular people that get along pretty well without it, but that still doesn't prove it to be manageable for us in our situation. 

(I wasn't trying to accuse all 80 year old widowers, I was just building off of the Rav Moshe story.)

wilnevergiveup wrote on 05 Mar 2021 09:54:

"Sex is optional "

It seems you keep misunderstanding what the point here is. It's not about chizuk. It's not about manageability. It's not to tell you that it's super easy once you believe this mindset. It's not even to convince someone that he never has to have sex again in is life, and he shouldn't be concerned about it.

All it is - is to break the preconceived notion of sex addicts and chronic lusters, as to the biological necessity of a sexual high. We trained ourselves over years that it is a necessity like food, and sometimes we cannot see withholding as an option at all.

Realizing that it is a misunderstanding can give one the ability to say no in the face of something he thought was biologically impossible.

Is it hard? Yes. Can it still be unmanageable for many (even if we know someone who can withhold)? Yes. IS IT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE? YES. So singling someone out, isn't here to prove it's manageable, it's to prove it's possible.

So yes, knowing that it is possible can help someone, even if he isn't as capable as the person who proved it. Fighting against something physically not possible is a different battle than something that is possible although extremely difficult. (I believe that's why  very often when a record is broken, many people can break it after.)

Grant400 wrote on 05 Mar 2021 14:36:

Thank you for this, but I do not think you're correct on several points. Firstly, are you an addict, you write about them and their thoughts and feelings, so I'm just wonderin'. I was and am an addict. I have sat in groups of meetings with other addicts; I have NEVER once heard one of these addicts say, "Sex is a necessity by me (and I will die without it)." Not alcoholics either. They and I know that it's possible to live without sex, and personally, it's kinda insultin' your rhetoric (and others) as if we are not only sick, but downright stupid as well. Because we're addicted to sex, drink, drugs, etc., do you think our intelligence is on empty? We need to be scolded that sex is optional to the point that if we don't follow our lust desire, whatever that may be, we won't die? Is that a novelty? We know we can live without it, but we don't wanna; it's enjoyable and fun and pleasurable and addictin'. And yes, to the guy who wrote previously that it's not fun and we shouldn't think like that, who is he kiddin'? And then you wanna prove your point from the Tzaddik and Gaon HaDor Reb Moshe zt"l? What are you gonna prove? That one can abstain from sex for ten years? If Reb Moshe can do it, we can!? Seriously, where is the logic in that? We know he was great; we know there were other tzaddikim that did supernatural stuff as well? Maybe we'd like to emulate them, but what practically has that got to do with us? And don't respond please with, "I just wanted to prove that it's possible," for we know good and well that it's possible. I'll clue you in on somethin' else as well; we know that our actions are harmful as well - to us, to our loved ones, to our friends, to the world and to God, and yes, we can be reminded of that as a method of prevention, but we know that, and yet, we engage in those behaviors anyway.

I do apologize for the rant' you are doin' great things here, but please, let's not get carried away with one poster who might have possibly compared sex to food, we know good and well that we need to eat for survival, and we know good and well that survival will continue even if we don't follow-thru on our lustful desires, but it's extremely appealin' to us, and it's difficult to stop. There are methods out there that can help us guys, but tellin' us that we won't die is not one of them.

thanks so much

cordnoy wrote on 05 Mar 2021 16:24:

I would have to disagree with you slightly. The first time someone actually told me that sex is optional, it was mind blowing. Not because I disagreed. Rather because I had never though about it.

Just my 2 cents...

I think there are 3 (maybe 4)questions that are being combined into 1 and should be separated for clarity<*>Is sex necessary in order for the world to continue and have future generations? Yes<*>Is sex necessary as a general rule for a relationship in a marriage to flourish and succeed? As a general rule...Yes<*>Is sex (or more accurately ejaculation) a necessity for a person to live? No<*>Is it highly challenging for a person to live without ejaculating? YESHatzlocha to all on our journey!

The general consensus seems to be that I will in fact not suddenly drop dead from going too long without ejaculating.
I wasn't really expecting otherwise (though I suppose we can run another poll, it's been years since cordnoy did the last one).

Now what?

@bm263, lot of respect. Reading your posts, sounds like you've been through a lot relative to some others posting here. Blown away by your post that you still think you have what to learn from the "bochurim" here, your humility is tremendous. I would call myself amongst the young rascals on this forum, I can't imagine I have anything to share that would help, but here we go: I was trying to think of an analog to the question as you described it, between believing something vs. knowing it's true but not believing. The thing that came into my head is the mitzvah of Ahavas Hashem - some ppl have it, others know it's an aspiration but don't feel it b'chlal, others are somewhere in between. Interestingly the Rambam says the way to achieve Ahavas Hashem is done indirectly - by reflecting on God's creations and pondering the workings of the universe, it's possible to jumpstart those feelings. I think the same holds true for our challenges - the way to approach it is not to convince ourselves it's possible/we can do it. That hasn't worked for me at least, and I imagine it hasn't worked for others. What does help is trying to find enjoyment in other areas of life, whatever that looks like for you - your friends, family, sports, a good book, torah, whatever works for you. If we find fulfillment elsewhere hopefully it should become easier to truly believe that we don't need this garbage to enjoy life.

evergreen wrote on 07 Mar 2021 05:37:

Actually, far from it, but wutever.


I have many things I enjoy, and I always feel like there's not enough time for all of them.
Still, I always seem to find time for acting out.
Anyone else have that experience?

Yup.

Me

bm263 wrote on 07 Mar 2021 05:56:

That's how we all are!

In my case, I think this is because when acting out, we don't need that much planning, it's kind of on a whim, and when we do plan, the planning is part of the fun. When doing some of the other things that bring satisfaction, we need to make real plans, which is sometimes difficult and not fun. 

I am not there yet, but at least I know that if I want to have fun doing the things that I really want, spend time with the people that I love etc. I need to do the difficult task of making a plan and sticking to it. (like right now, I need to close the computer because my wife is waiting for me to walk her somewhere).