Food isn't optional, it's a necessity. Eating it is optional. Sex, as well as any other (exclusive) pleasure is optional. If not engaged in, there are no consequences with real problematic effects.

Your argument is taking inconsequential effects and considering them worthy of influencing their value as a necessity.

Grant400 wrote on 04 Mar 2021 16:16:

I think that's sort of my point. How do you know it isn't necessary? By the way, the story from Reb Moshe doesn't actually prove anything. But I'll leave that sentence unfinished. You seem to define sex as a pleasure. Maybe it is a bodily need that we derive pleasure from. Much like food actually. Maybe, without it we become self-obsessed in other ways. All just maybes... 

​I confess to not understanding your last paragraph. 

bego wrote on 04 Mar 2021 16:40:


The story was just an inspiring anecdote, as the point doesn't need to be proven, it is a biological reality that sex isn't necessary for human survival. 

And you are playing with fire casting aspersions on the kedusha of someone like Rav Moshe in a public forum. Kavod haTorah is one of the most chamur things we have. For your own sake you should erase that from your post, and then you should rethink your attitude towards Chachmei Yisroel.



  

concernedjew21 wrote on 04 Mar 2021 17:04:

I feel terrible that I didn't think deeply enough into the post. I should have been מוחה too! I'm still not sure what you meant by it exactly, but such words with any such implications, should never be said or written - even anonymously!

Umm, maybe my knowledge of biology isn't the same as yours, but im pretty sure we need ejaculation for children i.e. survival of the species. 

Beg to differ, my respect for Reb Moshe has nothing to do with this. I'm not chassidish and don't make my gedolim into idols. I also don't really think too much about what they do. We are here to help people, including ourselves. An unrealistic (albeit true) story doesn't help. You are welcome to take what I said in whichever way you want. I wasn't actually saying Reb Moshe did anything wrong. I was saying the story proves nothing as we don't know all the details and we are not Reb Moshe. So no need to make machaos and print pashkevillim.

bego wrote on 04 Mar 2021 18:04:

Kinda what I was thinking, I am not sure what the whole hullaballoo is about. 

Rav Moshe was Rav Moshe, as was stated in the story, everyone else did use the mikva and this is because Rav Moshe felt that it was the best option (the way I heard it was that the only other choice would have been for everyone to separate). 

I think the definition of "optional" is being thrown around here as if it has any relevance, I would love for someone to explain how this helps us in our journey. (Unless we are discussing sexual pleasure other than being with your wife in which case this whole thread sounds like broken telephone).

This is a great thread! HKH as usual your spot on in your description of what it feels like when we act out. 

Just my two sense. Sex is optional. That is true. In our feelings however we don't feel like that a lot of the time. These two things can be true at once. 

Regarding the story of R' Moshe I believe the story, it brings out his gadlus in many ways (self control and his leadership to make sure it was there for everyone else). But putting that story here is pointless. For me personally it gives me no chizzuk. Tzadikim and Gedolei Yisroel like R Moshe live(d) in a different reality that us. Maybe we should share the story of the man who was in the same house as Michal bas Shaul and didn't touch her for years. We don't because we understand that we are lowly people and he was a tzadik elyoin. In a way its counter productive to share such stories because it makes us feel guilty for no reason because we are no where near their level. 

Anyways, hatzlocho to all.

Changing wrote on 04 Mar 2021 19:03:

The point of the story wasn't to be mechazek and say, if R Moshe can do it so can you. It was just to reinforce and prove that sex is not a necessity, and is optional. There are no stories of people not eating.

Grant400 wrote on 04 Mar 2021 21:24:

So I think we have different views on this. I see the person perhaps defining the necessity. Meaning while it might have been true for him, it doesn't make it inherently true. See my points above. I believe it is convenient to believe it is possible, but maybe its not. 

bego wrote on 04 Mar 2021 18:04:


Brother, let's call a spade a spade.

- You were coy and ambivalent about whether Rav Moshe actually kept up his kedusha during that time period. Not good.

- You compared the necessity of sex to the necessity of food. Which is, simply put, a patently false and absurd comparison.

If you meant to say something else, that's fine, by all means retract those statements and refine your position. But you're getting flak because of the above, and you're not really owning up to the absurdity of the position you took at the outset of the discussion.

concernedjew21 wrote on 05 Mar 2021 00:33:

For the record, that is not how I understood Bego's intent regardin' Reb Moshe.

סוטה ל"ו ע"ב: ויבא הביתה לעשות מלאכתו...וחד אמר לעשות צרכיו נכנס (פרש"י: צרכיו-תשמיש). ולא באתי אלא להעיר.

I know this isn't following the conversation but I just want to completely disagree with the idea mentioned here. No matter how it feels it isn't worthwhile and we should davka hope that it wasn't fun so we won't be influenced to do it again

Guilt is meant to be used for a constructive purpose. It’s an emotion that comes 
from a neshamah that feels distanced and awkward, and is sending a message that it’s time to change. However, many times the feelings of guilt end up being used against a person. In that case, the guilt becomes destructive. Destructive guilt does exactly what its name implies: It destroys a person.

When a person has true remorse, his desire to want to repair what he’s done 
wrong should give him a good feeling. It is true that when the aveirah is done, the 
person at first feels solemn and down from it. Nonetheless, afterwards he feels 
strengthened by a sense of resolve to conquer and fix his mistake. Destructive guilt, on the other hand, makes a person feel as if he’ll never be able to fix what he’s done, and he gives up hope. Guilt drains a person’s strength and shuts down his determination. The person feels, “I messed up already, so I may as well do it again.” That attitude creates a vicious cycle of more acting out, which leads to further guilt, hopelessness, and depression, and results in the person having an even lower self-image. 

DavidT wrote on 05 Mar 2021 03:46:

If we are already going off topic. I just want to say every time I see your avatar it makes me smile. And your posts are usually in line with that. Always positive. Thanks!