AsimpleJew wrote on 17 Aug 2020 06:14:

Hey there! Thanks for addressing this aspect. How to get started. 

So I'm risking sounding extremely cliche, but there's a reason something is considered cliche, usually because it's the truth. 

I started working on this a couple of weeks ago. I didn't even realize how second nature it became until I tried to stop. Wow. I was like a barcode scanner. So it was purely and entirely brutal. Pain. Heartache. Physically insurmountable. I wasn't just stopping myself from enjoying the scenery, I was shattering a habit of many, many years. I was almost discouraged by the immense torture and lengthy period of time I felt like I was just starting. I thought to myself that the rest of my life I'm going to have to be a mountain climber,  and that was frustrating and discouraging. But I continued "trucking" like they say here, and I eventually reached where I am today- a place where its still may be hard but a 4 instead of a 10. Most importantly I broke the habit, the immediate turn of my head and scanning of the view. Now it's not an automatic response. Yes I may want to, but now it's a decision not a reflex. 

So how did I do it?!? Heres how: I just did. I turned my head, closed my eyes, and used the methods I posted earlier on this topic. These methods are extremely effective and helpful but the core motivation must be yourself just fighting. Interestingly enough, before the fight got easier it became harder than it ever was initially. But once I broke through, I gained my freedom. Of course its still a battle, but it's not a lost one.

                                Grant

Hi Guys,

Take a look on how many fellow guys here or saying that they struggle with this issue...
My question is: Why is it that there are so many people out there that could see attractive women and they don't sexualize them - it's obvious that it has an affect on them but not to to such an extreme, and by me - and so for many guys here - it literally takes me over to the point that I don't see nothing besides a *** doll.

willdoit wrote on 17 Aug 2020 14:05:

When an architect sees a building, he sees foundations, design and engineering flaws. We see a building.

When a carpenter sees a bookcase, he sees oak or mahogany. We see a set of shelves.

When an artist sees art, he sees emotion, passion and intimation. We see a beautiful picture. 

When a luster sees a woman, he sees body parts, measurements and sex. They see a person.

                               Grant

Grant400 wrote on 17 Aug 2020 15:08:

Thanks for your answer.
So here is the million dollar question: Why and how did we become LUSTERS??
​I mean, it prob wasn't a conscious decision that we decided we wanna start lusting. 
Is there an answer to this question at all?

I am not basing what I am about to write on substantial evidence or knowledge of psychology, just on my own thinking and understanding. 

I believe that lusting is caused by pain. It's a person's way of giving themselves pleasure without anyone being able to stop them. It's a way of soothing. It's a stable anchor of satisfaction and happiness. It's just between a person and himself that cannot be taken away or lost.

When someone is unhappy or feels like a failure, when it seems like all enjoyable things in life are frowned upon and taken away, a person can always find solace and pleasure with lust. Lust cannot be taken away. Our thoughts can't be controlled by anyone other than ourselves. Its stable and ever present. 

I don't mean only extreme pain or even an obvious sense of failure, but even just subconsciously. For example, when a 13 year old rambunctious boy is placed on an overwhelming mesivta schedule, he just lost all his favorite hobbys and time for sports. All his former pleasurable activities are now frowned upon. Enter lust as a replacement. 

When a child feels constantly criticized and under critical observation by a parent, when he's always pressured to act differently than he wants or enjoys, enters lust as his anchor that cannot be scrutinized. 

When someone feels lost amongst his peers, friendless and lonely, enters lust as his new best friend.

Any depression, anxiety, abuse, pressure, failure, any emotional pain or uncomfortability can be forgotten and relegated to the back burner in the face of a few minutes of intense pleasurable lusting. Just the thought of acting out can already lighten the load and put an exciting twist to the monotony of life some may experience. It completely engages a person's body and mind, giving them a reprieve and a welcome getaway. 

To sum it up: I believe that it is usually caused by the need for pleasure or enjoyment in an otherwise painful or unenjoyable environment or existence. Again, not necessarily in an extreme manner. 

                                 Grant

Thank you Hashem that Grant joined GYE

Grant400 wrote on 17 Aug 2020 20:11:

Thank you, Grant!

Grant400 wrote on 17 Aug 2020 15:08:

Beautifully put, I think I need to read this every day, "I see body parts etc. but I need to be seeing a person".

Thanks

AsimpleJew wrote on 17 Aug 2020 06:14:

I have a little idea
I'll make a new username here to start working & keeping track on my new journey of stoping to look at women (or as Grant says, to see women as people not just body parts)
​The reason I'm making a new 90 day chart is because I don't wanna mix this work with my P sobriety, I feel that for me it's 2 completely different jobs that needs to be taken care separately.
I have  one question though, what should I consider a fall  for my new chart? I'm scarred to say that just looking on a lady should be considered a fall because then I don't think (as of now) that I'll ever pass 1 day because (again, so far) my eyes are looking automatically before I even realize what happened

I'd just like to add a little to this. I think what you wrote here is the key point to lust.

The idea of lust is it grants a freedom. It doesn't have to be a release of pain. Doesn't have to be a getaway. More like a breakout. Its an attempt to be in control. We so often feel restricted, and lust is our outlet. Its our way to gain freedom. I can choose to let loose in this manner. With lust, I am free to act out whatever I may choose. I can do things, envision things, desire things, that are wrong. And that's liberating.

That could be why, many of us who work on lust, seem to feel it so much more than those who don't. Take the religious jew. We feel we are restricted, bound all the time by Judaism and its laws and demands. So lust comes us an outlet. For now, I am not bound by anything, I am able to let loose totally and completely. As the saying goes, we are 'releasing the beast.'

I'm just trying to explain how a very happy, emotionally stable, 13/14 year old could get so addicted to lust. I'm not sure its pain. But its a release to his restrictions. It doesn't have to be Judaism. Lust and specifically p thrives off taking societal moral standards and destroying them. I saw a couple of threads on here about people feeling immorality is being glamorized in their minds by lust and p. And I can see it happening with incest to. Lust is twisting of morals. We don't lust for the permitted, only the forbidden. Why? Because the permitted it within our confines. But the forbidden is outside our box, outside our prison of morality. There, we feel, we will find our liberation.

Again, not coming to argue. Most often we need this freedom as an outlet to stress, anxiety etc. But it can even be our own sense of morality, or our yiddishkeit, that is the catalyst for our desire for lust.

How did we become lusters? We felt more restricted than others. We felt more tied up. How do we stop being lusters? By realizing these bonds, our sense of morality and kedusha, are actually the free-est place in the world.

Hatzlocha all

AsimpleJew wrote on 18 Aug 2020 05:06:

I am not sure what you have in mind but unless you only look at the floor or take off your glasses (not a bad idea actually) you will always automatically look. This is not going to change, it's what happens afterwards that you can control.

Im Tevakshena Kakasef wrote on 18 Aug 2020 10:33:

I just want to add on to the add on here, the same way lust gives us the freedom to choose, so to we have the freedom to choose not to lust. We can be "forced" not to lust by whatever it is that you feel obligates you, but we can also choose not to lust and that is a choice that we are free to make.
The thing is we have to choose one or the other and in life we tend to choose the easier choice unless we have a good reason not to.

The freedom to choose lust is not a freedom at all if the other option in not an option at all that is called being "forced to lust". It is only freedom when we have the ability to choose between two options. 

We have to make not lusting a choice, not something we are being forced to do, and if you give yourself a reason that is bigger then the reason to lust then you will be able to make the right choice out of freedom.

In Judaism, we are supposed to be able to have a choice to do either right or wrong and conscious decision to do good. We are not supposed to feel forced, we have to work up a motivation to want to choose good.

A little off topic here, I know, but slightly relevant nonetheless.

All the best,
Wilnevergiveup

I don't think that this is an option for me, I live with alot of neighbors in my apartment and I have female co-workers, but I think this is Grant's point, if I see women as human beings just like me or as another Creation in the world then I'm fine, but as of now Everytime I see a lady instantly my thoughts and lust starts playing games and this is what needs to change

AsimpleJew wrote on 18 Aug 2020 05:06:

Kol hakovod!

This in particular must be dealt with differently, because as mentioned it is constantly in our faces.

The way that seems reasonable is as follows: The streak should be determined by a basic overall working on it. We cannot determine success solely based upon not fantasizing at all. Its inevitable especially in the beginning. If you are heading on an upward trajectory, you are succeeding. Some days or places will be more difficult, but if you are constantly working on it you are clean. Sometimes you will just give in and say, sorry...gotta check her out. Take it in stride. We are humans. Addicted humans. It takes time. Just make sure you are mostly growing and gaining control. Try your best to guard your eyes and to prevent being in difficult situations whenever possible, and to start training yourself to view women as people.

Use any method you feel helpful (like the ones mentioned above) to deflect oncoming thoughts threatening to take seed or to deal with thoughts already sprouting. 

Just a few points I found helpful.

1) If a thought comes don't fight it and try to force yourself to think about something else or tell yourself "stop, stop, stop", it doesn't help, it only makes it worse. Just accept the thought and move on. Gently remind yourself that shes also a person with likes and dislikes, and that the lust is coming from within you, not emanating from her. It might linger a drop but if you aren't actively pursuing it it will fade.

2) When seeing an attractive woman and immediately your brain registers all the thoughts you don't want. That isn't your fault. Its immediate. Don't beat yourself up. If you pursue the thought further then it's wrong. Accept it, tell yourself shes a person etc. and move on.

3) Expect it to be harder than you anticipated in the beginning. It gets easier eventually. Maybe 3 weeks, maybe 3 months, maybe more maybe less.

4) Post. Post. Post. It gives you accountability, the oilam offers hugs and kicks in the pants when needed, and serves as an inspiration to all.

5) Don't be too hard on yourself, you are awesome. Simply awesome.

                               Hatzlacha,
                                          
                                             Grant

AsimpleJew wrote on 18 Aug 2020 12:25:

I am sorry I misread your post, I missed the (or as Grant says, to see women as people not just body parts) part. I thought you were planning on not seeing women again.

My apologies.