....
So I’ll gladly say- that whatever helps you is what you should use (provided it doesn’t mean chatting with another woman)

Workingguy wrote on 28 Mar 2019 03:57:

Agree wiht teh first two paragraphs. The later half I would say like this- 

Not sure if I agree. Torah is instructions. The manual begins assuming you have all the peices in place and ready to assemble. One of those pieces is a complete starting level human being. The fact that the Torah endorses the concept of a complete human being deosn't mean it is meant to instruct a person how to be that. It (imho based and what I got from all the rabbis I ever spoke to) means that in order to assemble a spiritual ladder (Torah zeheirus zerizus.. or whatever system you work with of growth) you need that person to start. 

On a deeper level, if I wanted to see the derech eretz thing as part of the 'Torah' it needs to apply to all people. Not just the mamleches kohanim.  I am talking about a normalcy that (although rare in the world) applies to humanity not just yiddin. THAT I can hear IS rooted in the Torah. Because the Torah is the blueprint for creation, all of it and all people and creatures involved. So yeh on that level Torah can be the source of decency in my understanding. Whatever ways we as Jews are 'different' mamleches kohanim - goy kadosh... has no shaychus to my thinking on masturbation and porn other than that if I do those things I have transgressed. And that causes me pain. No amount of focusing on those specifically Jewish concepts helps me, or anyone I know who feels they are addict/obsessed or somehow drawn to these actions in a different more volatile way, stay sober/clean/away from doing it. But focusing on that 'human element' (not an esoteric  etheral removed spirituality... It's NOT spirituality!  It's humanity!) does help me. 

It's been my personal experience as well as that of many on the forum that utilizing Torah and mussar to address and addictive personality is akin to using a drill to bake. Wrong tool for the job. It's not a lack of yiras shomayim. It's an illness of the mind. Are you new here? This is pretty standard knowledge amongst addicts.

It's been my personal experience as well as that of many on the forum that utilizing Torah and mussar to address and addictive personality is akin to using a drill to bake. Wrong tool for the job. It's not a lack of yiras shomayim. It's an illness of the mind. Are you new here? This is pretty standard knowledge amongst addicts.

I hate and appreciate the days my wife is assur. 

OTR wrote on 02 Apr 2019 00:37:

For practical purposes, not for the sake of a philosophical argument- Markz used to, and maybe still does, have a long list of people who succeeded in being sober after a long time. Many who were told, who thought, or who said, that they were addicts.

I went through most if not all of them when I rejoined, and I saw a crazy thing. Many addicts learned they weren’t addicts or got downgraded, and the variety of ways that people became sober was almost as varied as the names of the people.

And yes, some used religion and Mussar. So while I think most of us here agree that Mussar won’t cure true addicts (whatever that means), there is so much variety of definition, and so much variety to who succeeds around here, that I wouldn’t dismiss any method outright.

AlexEliezer, I believe, cured himself through some method with the Arizal’s teachings and some other things. 

I, a former twelve stepper, succeeded for long periods of time by learning that Shmiras Einayim and staying away from triggers works. 

So so by all means, if someone is recommending something that you think is detrimental, stop them. 

But otherwise, I don’t know if you can assume as fact that it doesn’t work. 

And as for the disease model of addiction-it’s one model, and plenty a controversial model. See the Rat Park video, read Stanton Peele and Gabor Mate, and you’ll see that it’s not a given either. 
(And Dov will tell you that it doesn’t work for the addicts, but that way too many people think they are addicts, and that for those people it might indeed work. )

It is quite evident that my service of Hashem is almost completely self centered. I say that bec I think I have had some times where I davened and wanted mashiach to come for the Jewish ppl. But my main goal is that I should work on myself and get Hashem's help to solve my personal problems. - My tefila is almost entirely focused on that (I can balst through an entire davening and wake up at the end of elokay netwzor when we start askng for our own things). It's not like I just ask for gashmiyus. Which is of course included. I ask for help improving my middos where they need to be and for issues related to chinuch of my kids that are all pretty much shalom bayis stuff. I ask for help in being honest with my wife in our relationship.. and to work on my emunah and bitachon. All these are things I want for my own peace of mind. If it doesn't fall into an emotional need for me, I just kinda see it as a heicha timtza to not getting God angry so that the other stuff will work out for me. - Not sure if I should be working more toward a leshma, or just keep focusing my personal needs into my relationship with Hashem

On another side note. I need to go to NY today. Of course the toughts of the nude bars etc.. have been in my mind for years. Today I am glad to to say.. they are not as loud. I want to stay honest with my wife more than I want that insanity in me atm. That makes me happy. Although . have sort of reached out to some women.. I think I just like being in the 'chase mode.' With the promise and 'possibility' there. But in reality i ma not going anywher with it.