Welcome, Guest

Is pornography and masturbation selfish?
(0 viewing) 
Welcome to our forum! Introduce yourself here (anonymously, of course) and get a warm welcome from the rest of the community!

TOPIC: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 24744 Views

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 29 Dec 2015 21:53 #272739

  • Markz
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 8281
  • Karma: 427
Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
Bigmoish wrote:
Too much lomdus for me.


Just as when a person his selfish, everything he does will inevitably contain some element of that selfishness, so when one is a lamdan, everything he says will inevitable be a least somewhat lomdish.

Bigmoish wrote:

The question was if the ACTS are selfish.

This question is more about how you want to define the word selfish than it is about the properties of masturbation.

On the other hand, actually, it is absolutely selfish even if you define the word selfish to mean harming others as Waydown defines it. Because it is referred to in scripture as spilling innocent blood and as oppression (עושק).
Hishavta li my senses, and my vote swings again
My Story---------Dov Quotes




FREE LUST TRUCK TOWING
Click HERE to checkout;
100 Day Success Stories: cordnoy, Dov, Gevura and more...
• Awesome Threads Saved for You
• Cast Your Vote

GYE Plenty Solutions
➣ The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk

➣ Nice Trucking Story

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 30 Dec 2015 06:31 #272796

  • Watson
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1280
  • Karma: 85
eslaasos wrote:
I have numerous reasons why I want to be sober and I am given numerous opportunities to slip. Sometimes some motivations kick in, sometimes others, so this knowledge is on occasion helpful.


Thank you.

Personally, knowledge never helped me stay sober. I never masturbated because I forgot it was wrong. But if this discussion helps other people stay sober then I'm all for it.
Last Edit: 30 Dec 2015 06:55 by Watson.

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 30 Dec 2015 08:32 #272802

From a religious point of view yes but otherwise it is a way of life. Its hard not to. Its not that it's impossible though

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 30 Dec 2015 17:29 #272845

  • eslaasos
  • Current streak: 16 days
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 954
  • Karma: 81
Watson wrote:
eslaasos wrote:
I have numerous reasons why I want to be sober and I am given numerous opportunities to slip. Sometimes some motivations kick in, sometimes others, so this knowledge is on occasion helpful.


Thank you.

Personally, knowledge never helped me stay sober. I never masturbated because I forgot it was wrong. But if this discussion helps other people stay sober then I'm all for it.


I didn't say that I forgot it was wrong, but sometimes the temptation is not to masturbate but to start the trip.
For me, if I watch movies or read secular books I know it will make me feel disgusting and would potentially lead to a fall so that's one of my main battlefields. I hope to stay away from them and at the initial stages, the logic helps me. Once I start down that road, logic is irrelevant, which is why I need to stay far away.

I hope someone finds this discussion helpful.
Quotes that speak to me
What do we replace it with....Life (Cordnoy)
My Thread    My Other Thread

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 30 Dec 2015 17:40 #272847

  • cordnoy
  • OFFLINE
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 12072
  • Karma: 652
eslaasos wrote:
Watson wrote:
eslaasos wrote:
I have numerous reasons why I want to be sober and I am given numerous opportunities to slip. Sometimes some motivations kick in, sometimes others, so this knowledge is on occasion helpful.


Thank you.

Personally, knowledge never helped me stay sober. I never masturbated because I forgot it was wrong. But if this discussion helps other people stay sober then I'm all for it.


I didn't say that I forgot it was wrong, but sometimes the temptation is not to masturbate but to start the trip.
For me, if I watch movies or read secular books I know it will make me feel disgusting and would potentially lead to a fall so that's one of my main battlefields. I hope to stay away from them and at the initial stages, the logic helps me. Once I start down that road, logic is irrelevant, which is why I need to stay far away.

I hope someone finds this discussion helpful.


Of course we do.
Perhaps one day we will meet for a tea or a pint to discuss further.
May I suggest Piccadilly Circus or Leicester Square?
I will dye my hair orange to fit in.....oops, what hair?
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads: Mikvah Night - Page 1Page 2Page 3Last Page

https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/210029-Tryin
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!
My job: Punchin' bag of GYE - "NeshamaInCharge"
Quote from the chevra: "Is Cordnoy truly a Treasure Island pirate from the Southern Seas?"

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 30 Dec 2015 17:45 #272848

  • eslaasos
  • Current streak: 16 days
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 954
  • Karma: 81
You know my weaknesses, so that's below the belt.
Quotes that speak to me
What do we replace it with....Life (Cordnoy)
My Thread    My Other Thread

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 30 Dec 2015 18:16 #272860

  • Watson
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1280
  • Karma: 85
eslaasos wrote:
I didn't say that I forgot it was wrong


I didn't say you said you forget it's wrong.

Then again, you didn't say I said you said you forget it's wrong.

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 11 Jan 2016 18:00 #273982

  • Markz
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 8281
  • Karma: 427
selfishness feeds lust which feeds selfishness... ... - an endless circle

Which is why the common שורש of גאוה and תאוה is אוה.
They are intertwined one another
Rabbi A Schorr שליטא


This attachment is hidden for guests. Please log in or register to see it.

You can start from minute 11, and if you like gematria there are some pearls to be found here

Thanks to Torahanytime
Forgive me for lowering the sound quality to enable upload
My Story---------Dov Quotes




FREE LUST TRUCK TOWING
Click HERE to checkout;
100 Day Success Stories: cordnoy, Dov, Gevura and more...
• Awesome Threads Saved for You
• Cast Your Vote

GYE Plenty Solutions
➣ The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk

➣ Nice Trucking Story

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 12 Jan 2016 16:07 #274066

  • waydown
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 670
  • Karma: 7
Cords,

Sorry I have been out for a while,

Again how does this relate to steps 4 & 5? What does lust have to do with "others"?

Please explain this question

Part of the steps of ridding lust is to write out how we harmed and resented others and let go of it. My understanding is that this is a lead up. First we realize we are selfish and lust harmed others. Then we try to rectify our behavior. Because since the underlying reason why we lusted was due to this midda of not caring about others, once we start caring about others we won't lust.
Even if its not the underlying midda but since when we lust we don't care about others by starting to care about others we won't lust anymore

And so basically my understanding is that recovery is based on the notion that we harmed others. that's why I pose the question that I don't see how the root (or shorosh) of lust harmed others nor do I see that an outcome of lust necessarily harmed others. Whats more even in the instances when we did harm others it wasn't that we didn't care about others feelings. It was more that we had this almost coffee/ addiction like addiction called lust. So even when we harmed others it bothered us that we harmed others. Does it even bother a selfish person when he harms others. Henceforth I don't get the whole concept of this recovery and how it relates to ridding oneself of lust.

And yes I know people say you just have to do the recovery without asking questions. But that's a very odd thing to say. Because its not a physical thing like take medicine without asking questions how it cures. Its all a mental thing. The idea is to work your mind and connect the dots so that you don't lust when in my mind the dots don't connect.

This is why its important to discuss did we harm others. Perhaps I should post a new survey with a simple question stating, "must we harm others when we lust?" Because to me name calling is not relevant to recovery. So whether this is the way Webster titches selfish or its not the correct titch is really a futile irrelevant topic to me.
Last Edit: 12 Jan 2016 16:12 by waydown.

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 12 Jan 2016 16:57 #274069

  • mggsbms
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 680
  • Karma: 53
Suffice it to say that I'm far from being the expert on the 12 steps around here. But to me you are over simplifying the 4th step to be dealing just about hurting others.

There are at least two other major components at play.

1. Resentment, self centeredness and selfishness are what "feed" the addiction, when we are focused on our selves and our resentments we have the need to act out to calm our pain.

2. By cleaning house we are readying ourselves to be the recipients of a spiritual experience, which is the corner stone of recovery.


Therefore the whole issue "are we really hurting others" isn't that central to the fourth step.
Aka -  Mischadeish075 Email mischadeish075@gmail.com
Last Edit: 12 Jan 2016 17:04 by mggsbms.

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 12 Jan 2016 22:11 #274103

  • mggsbms
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 680
  • Karma: 53
9494 wrote:
mggsbms wrote:
Suffice it to say that I'm far from being the expert on the 12 steps around here. But to me you are over simplifying the 4th step to be dealing just about hurting others.

There are at least two other major components at play.

1. Resentment, self centeredness and selfishness are what "feed" the addiction, when we are focused on our selves and our resentments we have the need to act out to calm our pain.

2. By cleaning house we are readying ourselves to be the recipients of a spiritual experience, which is the corner stone of recovery.


Therefore the whole issue "are we really hurting others" isn't that central to the fourth step.


I too am no "expert" on the 12 steps (only on step 1). I dont think we are oversimplifying them - they are pretty simple. I think we are overcomplicating them.


Explain
Aka -  Mischadeish075 Email mischadeish075@gmail.com

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 12 Jan 2016 23:48 #274111

  • cordnoy
  • OFFLINE
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 12072
  • Karma: 652
waydown wrote:
Cords,

Sorry I have been out for a while,

Again how does this relate to steps 4 & 5? What does lust have to do with "others"?

Please explain this question

Part of the steps of ridding lust is to write out how we harmed and resented others and let go of it. My understanding is that this is a lead up. First we realize we are selfish and lust harmed others. Then we try to rectify our behavior. Because since the underlying reason why we lusted was due to this midda of not caring about others, once we start caring about others we won't lust.
Even if its not the underlying midda but since when we lust we don't care about others by starting to care about others we won't lust anymore

And so basically my understanding is that recovery is based on the notion that we harmed others. that's why I pose the question that I don't see how the root (or shorosh) of lust harmed others nor do I see that an outcome of lust necessarily harmed others. Whats more even in the instances when we did harm others it wasn't that we didn't care about others feelings. It was more that we had this almost coffee/ addiction like addiction called lust. So even when we harmed others it bothered us that we harmed others. Does it even bother a selfish person when he harms others. Henceforth I don't get the whole concept of this recovery and how it relates to ridding oneself of lust.

And yes I know people say you just have to do the recovery without asking questions. But that's a very odd thing to say. Because its not a physical thing like take medicine without asking questions how it cures. Its all a mental thing. The idea is to work your mind and connect the dots so that you don't lust when in my mind the dots don't connect.

This is why its important to discuss did we harm others. Perhaps I should post a new survey with a simple question stating, "must we harm others when we lust?" Because to me name calling is not relevant to recovery. So whether this is the way Webster titches selfish or its not the correct titch is really a futile irrelevant topic to me.


There really is nothing new being said here.
Thread going in circles.
I don't convince people to join program.
I do try explaining stuff, but here, it has been fulfilled.

B'hatzlachah
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads: Mikvah Night - Page 1Page 2Page 3Last Page

https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/210029-Tryin
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!
My job: Punchin' bag of GYE - "NeshamaInCharge"
Quote from the chevra: "Is Cordnoy truly a Treasure Island pirate from the Southern Seas?"

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 13 Jan 2016 22:53 #274181

  • mggsbms
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 680
  • Karma: 53
9494 wrote:
mggsbms wrote:
9494 wrote:
mggsbms wrote:
Suffice it to say that I'm far from being the expert on the 12 steps around here. But to me you are over simplifying the 4th step to be dealing just about hurting others.

There are at least two other major components at play.

1. Resentment, self centeredness and selfishness are what "feed" the addiction, when we are focused on our selves and our resentments we have the need to act out to calm our pain.

2. By cleaning house we are readying ourselves to be the recipients of a spiritual experience, which is the corner stone of recovery.


Therefore the whole issue "are we really hurting others" isn't that central to the fourth step.


I too am no "expert" on the 12 steps (only on step 1). I dont think we are oversimplifying them - they are pretty simple. I think we are overcomplicating them.


Explain


I will say like this: Look to the source. Look at the people who "invented" the 12 steps ie AA and look at the people who live these steps and put them at the centre of their lives - ie the guys in the anonymous fellowships. You will rarely rarely (if ever) find these sort of debates among them. People don't sit in meetings and learn the steps in the books like a deep sugya. Its not bava kama and its not even mesilas yesharim. You could probably find more lomdus in the haskomas to a sefer written this decade. Probably more lomdus in a pashkvil.

OK! so back to the guys living this 12 steps thingy - They read the texts simply and share what works. Then they go and live the steps with the guidance of someone whos actually living them. Somehow these very people don't get caught up with (pointless? endless?) debates about the steps that we are finding on these threads. You wont find anyone in these fellowships who is breaking their teeth trying to understand them. And nevertheless it works for them.

Ok sorry I have had my rant.


...NOW...

Let the pointless...and increasingly boring debate commence...And when someone else finds something else to nitpick and analyze to death about the steps let him or her start their own thread about it . In which is featured discussions by "experts", "talmideia chachomim", "lamdonim", and "people with WHOLE minutes of experience in living the steps"...and we can have this whole party again free of charge! OK now the rant is really over.


Explained
Aka -  Mischadeish075 Email mischadeish075@gmail.com

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 13 Jan 2016 23:12 #274185

  • shlomo24
  • Current streak: 1 day
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 2213
  • Karma: 135
9494 wrote:
OK! so back to the guys living this 12 steps thingy - They read the texts simply and share what works. Then they go and live the steps with the guidance of someone whos actually living them. Somehow these very people don't get caught up with (pointless? endless?) debates about the steps that we are finding on these threads. You wont find anyone in these fellowships who is breaking their teeth trying to understand them. And nevertheless it works for them.

I relate, I was in one fellowship that analyzed the steps and the literature to death. They made it like gemara. Did it help their sobriety? I don't think so, there was not a lot of sobriety in those rooms. The fellowship that I am in now is much more desperate and just like, "Screw it, if this works then I'm doing it, I need my life back," and there's a lot of sobriety in this fellowship.
If you're an LGBTQ or LGBTQ-questioning person and looking for someone who can understand you, feel free to reach out. I promise no judgement and to try and listen the best I can. 

Email: iam24zman@gmail.com

Re: Is pornography and masturbation selfish? 13 Jan 2016 23:41 #274196

  • stillgoing
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1700
  • Karma: 157
ok, I'm sure this has been quoted somewhere on the forums before, but goggle definition of selfish is
(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.


One does not need to be hurting others in order to be called selfish.
When I am eating pizza for any reason other then having energy to help others or serve Hashem (which is usually the case by me with pizza) I am "lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with my own personal profit or pleasure."
When I am going on a trip for any reason other then clearing my mind in order to help others or serve Hashem I am "lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with my own personal profit or pleasure."
When I am mz'l for any reason I am "lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with my own personal profit or pleasure."

Selfish is not automatically a terrible thing, sometimes we may feel that we need to do something for ourselves. It can be selfish, but it can be kosher.
Being 100% selfLESS is a beautiful thing, but lets be realistic, Most people are not holding there now.
BIG SHOT!
Free Choice?!
Yirai's Memories
STORY TIME :)

Dr. Seuss - You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own, and you know what you know. And you are the guy who'll decide where to go.

FSKOT! (Fell Shmell--Keep on Trucking) (The Rebba R' Bards)

613stillgoing@gmail.com
Time to create page: 0.92 seconds

Are you sure?

Yes