I missed the words "in between these times". Sorry about that. I was about to make another comment that may be considered harsh, but I'll just shut up now

An idea about something you wrote that you may find helpful:

Going to SA meetings is actually far safer than you walking into your bar. You will not be announcing to the world what your problems are by going to meetings with other addicts like myself.

Where are the SA meetings in your community? I bet you do not even know.
Do you know who goes to them and what their problems are? I assume you do not.

Yet you say that if you show up, the world will know. You sure about that now?

Your bar people who recognize you week to week give you the privacy you need and leave you a lone enough so that you do not run away. They want your business and it is the etiquette there. Discreet.

12 step meetings operate the same way - we are Anonymous outside the rooms. If frum SA guys in Lakewood, Chicago, Baltimore, Borough Park, Monsey, or Yerushalayim actually told their wives 'who came to the meeting tonight', SA would not survive another month. Yet here we are over 20 years with tons of frummies going to meetings and more every day.

I've been in SA meetings and conventions with hundreds of people frum and not frum, goyimg and Jews for years, in frum neighborhoods and not...how is it that my kids are getting fine shiduchim? How is it that no one has ostracized me and my wife and family? Obviously SA is anonymous.

Actually, you will eventually get caught. But - if you are actually an addict - attending SA meetings and working the program honestly will probably allow you to be clean and never again get into a 'compromising' place. So it turns out that you by yourself are actually the worst keeper of your own secret.

SA is actually a far better keeper of your secret than you are. Hard to believe.

Really it is not that hard to believe. It's just that we are so damn ashamed and scared of admitting openly to safe people who really understand and care - that we are fools for sweet lust and do terribly crazy things and have a mental illness. It's not 'respectable'. But 'fighting the yetzer hora' is respectable, even if we are losing!

You may not be an addict...but you may. I hope it is time for you to get the help you need. Find a shrink who knows about this stuff and talk openly hiding nothing. That's the best suggestion I can make.

Of course, if you ever want to talk, I will gladly share my cell# with you.

Peace, brother!

- Dov

PS. there are a few other good points you made that I wanted to share ideas on, and some I wanted to offer an alternative for, but I have no time now. Hatzlocha chaver, you are not alone.

Okay folks, this is bigger than I can handle on my own. I have located a doctor that takes my insurance and am making an appointment with an MD /Psychiatrist, Board Certified in Addiction Psychiatry by by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology.

B"H and thank you all for the heartfelt advice and real concern and love for your fellow Jew. It is a truly beautiful thing. I will do my best to report back once I have my first appointment with the Psychiatrist.

I will tell the psychiatrist everything that is happening and the behaviors I have been involved in.

In the meantime, I am going to keep by my shvuah and not enter in to any non Jewish bar or tavern for a week, and hopefully after a successsful week I will try for a month.

Hakoras Ha Tov to all of you!

ataglance12345 wrote:


good move!
keep us posted please

a gitten shabbos

A few points of advice:

1) If you see a psychiatrist, please make sure he is trained in dealing with addiction. Otherwise you will likely be wasting a lot of time and money.

2) Regarding the Shavuah you made, make sure to renew it BEFORE it expires, so your Yetzer Hara / addiction does not use the loophole to get you to act-out.

3) I see that Dov has commented twice already on your thread. Dov is 18 years sober in SA and he is very wise (besides being the head moderator of this forum). So make sure to read his words carefully, they are often much deeper than appear at first glance.

4) Regarding what you wrote:



That is precisely why the 12-Steps can be so helpful. They help you make that inner change you are talking about. Please join our anonymous 12-Step conferences on the phone, every day Mon - Thurs. There is no excuse that "someone will see you" in these groups, since they are by phone.

Regarding your insistence that you can't join a live group, I totally understand your hesitation, but please read what a GYE member wrote to me not long ago:



And another one wrote:

Nate,
You defintley know more about goyim than I do since I am an FFB and have never mingled amoungst them. But I will tell you based on my limited experinece that not all goyim are selfish and self centerd. Some are very caring & sweet as well. Personally, where I work there are some very nice goyim. One girl is a life savor. Every time I get a project and have no clue how to approach it, I reach out to her. She always gives up her precious time and helps me. She also frquently offers me chizuk when the work pressure gets tough. BH she is as ugly as can be so I have zero tavous for her. But you can't make that rule that goyim are not caring. I'll add one more story. Not too long ago I was working at a local coffee shop on my laptop. In walks in a smelly homeless guy and starts begging guys to buy him a free cup of coffee. He was ignored for a while. Till one attractive looking shiktza walks in and proudly offers him a free coffee. (I actually felt like such a moron but thats a side point)
My point is there are nice goyim out there too.

Welcome Ataglance12345!!!

Just read through the thread and wow in just a few days who seem to be beating down the right path.

I don't have much to add to all the posts above just wanted to Welcome you and let you know that your a real chizuk to all of us here. I am also having you in mind in my prayers.

so KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!!

I totally agree! I never said there aren't nice and caring goyim.. I said the typical shiksa is loose. I could be wrong but I think the typical shiksa today is loose compared to Jewish girls, even the not frum. No proof of that, just a hunch. And the idea of being a besula until marriage is something that is almost completely forgotten and ignored in today's world.

Okay, had the weekend to think about my issues. This forum was very helpful in that it shocked me in to reality about my behavior and how destructive it really is at times, but that is what depresses me even more. That I am capable of sinking so darn low. What kind of Jew am I? A big phony it seems. I watched my holy family fast this Sunday, and I fasted too, at least until about 5:00 when I felt I was going to pass out from thirst, so I drank some ice water, but no food.

Went to the mikvah twice this weekend and begged Hashem for forgiveness and asked for Chizuk in fighting my yetzer hora. It helped me feel a bit better in that I was at least giving my guf a spiritual cleanse.

The shavuah is still in force, B"H, and I will try and renew it before it expires per the advice of one of the moderators, maybe Dov, can't recall.

Anyway, the urge to go to a bar is still very strong in me. It is not for the alcohol, I could get that anywhere anytime, and do not crave it as a substance per se. What I obviously crave is the bar experience and all the tumah that it entails. I honestly think in my armchair psychology, that I look for this tumah as a way to escape the restrictions and feelings of "different" that being frum entail. Strange to actively choose this lifestyle and then to run from it at certain times. It is depressing to me that after all these years of being "frum" that I still cannot be counted on to be a good practicing frum Jew at all times.

And lets face it, this addiction stuff is all fine to talk about, but these are conscious choices I am making, and I know they are wrong and dangerous. I do not want to excuse my bahvior because of an "illness." It is not like I "end up" by accident in a bar and act like this. I know exactly waht I am doing and why I am going, while stone cold sober. I will even take off my kepah and titzis and leave them in the car in preparation for my "night out." How is that for conscious aveira seeking? I know I am going to fall, so I take off all religious acoutrements off beforehand...ugh.

Anyway, I see my holy family, B"H, and how I have raised them ken ayin hora, so well, that they are wonderful G-d fearing children, and my tzadaykus wife, and I feel so ashamed that I can sink so low.

But am I a bad person and Jew, or a good person and a good Jew with some very serious tayvus that need treatment of some sort.

I am going with good person and good Jew, because that is the reality of it. I have raised a great family and I need to be proud of that. I hold a good job and have a good career, and am financially stable and owe very little to anyone B"H. I am physically healthy B"H and in decent shape. So I have a heck of a lot going for me. I just need to break this very very destructive and bad habit of binge drinking in bars and sinking in to "normal" goyishe behavior.

That is what is so disturbing. For the average goy where I live, this behavior is very very normal. That is part of the problem, in that there is such a "hum drum" culture of tumah in the goyishe velt, with the lowest basest desired and actions looked upon as "courageous" and normal, that it seeps in to our religious world. Especially when you work a normal job in the greater world. Perhaps if I lived in New Square or Bnei Brak Bet Shemesh these issues would not be so strong. I think that is the case but it is not an excuse. Just that it would be easier to avoid these behaviors if there was not a goyish tavern on every block and every billboard and magazine cover is covered with what used to be considered pornographic images but is now just normal. Just look at the recent supreme court decision. Toevah Behavior that is solely devoted to animal lust for pleasure is now sanctioned by the SUPREME COURT as the law of the land. I think in the same session they said the the ASerest Hadebros cannot be shown in a public place. That is what we are dealing with nowadays.

So, thanks again to all the folks who helped out with responses. I have an appointment on Friday with my doctor to discuss these issues, it seems that I cannot see a shrink without his referral first. So be it. I am on the way.

I do REALLY appreciate the responses to my posts, it has been tremendously comforting that people understand my issues, so I would respectfully ask that people continue to post if they feel like doing so.

Thanks!

I think that's really great that you opening up and sharing like this. I hope you don't get bombarded with people here analyzing your post and pontificating with lofty advice. You're going through a process and the main thing is to be honest and keep moving forward in a positive direction.

Just some experience strength and hope. I can definitely relate very much to your story and I've been able to find some hope in sobriety. It takes time though, so have patience with yourself. Being depressed about the past never helped me, so why should I bother, I admit the past to God, myself another human being and move on from it.

Hatzlacha!

the.guard, can you give me more detail about the 12 step on the phone. i clicked the link but it said it was not active.

We have a quick call at 1:15 today.
Holdin' by step 4.

i cant seem to find the phone number or anything a bout a 1:15 call. can you give me the phone number on this forum or direct me to find it properly? I really want to call and just listen in for the first time, That would be great!

Hey I wouldn't get so down. You are not a phony. You are a normal person struggling with a large yetzer hara. You are also coming from someone who experienced letting loose and no matter how religious you become that ultimate "fun" still lingers. There is a famous story with a yid who went to the reba crying that his child became meshuga. He dances with shkitzas and eats pork. The reba said slow down. Were he to dance with pigs and eat shiktzas then he'd be crazy He is not crazy he just has tavos. I think its very applicable to you. You have tasted issurim and the delicous taste still lingers.
I'll tell you more, I am an FFB. BH I never did the things you did and hope to never commit it. But I have thought about it. When I came across a girl on-line who wants to eat out and have fun, I have contemplated Ok I'll eat some trief stuff with her, hide my judiasm and do the issur. Since I am so far removed from these stuff it never came to reality. (Plus my yarmulka hides my bald spot LOL!!) But the fact that it was a thought in my mind is already upseting. And its tantamount to you actually commiting these sins.(Since you are familair with that lifestyle and can easily navagate it.)
My point is don't give up and don't consider yourself a fake. You are not a fake rather a very real person struggling with a real yetzer hara. And even if you fall you are not fake. Remember if even once your life you held back from entering that bar you have already done a great deed for hashem. (Of course we hope you never step into that bar but even if Chas vasholom not)
One more thing yiddishkit is not measured by success rather its measured by the effort we put into succeeding.(The amielus.)

Nice, thank you! That means a lot. You hit the nail on the head. Once the Yetzer hora has tasted tehse sins, his hunger can become impossible to satiate. That is why for someone in your shoes it is really important to not fall in to these ways nad let you y"h taste these aveiros, otherwise you may not be able to stop if you are the type of person that these tayvoss are a real attractant. Your words of encouragement are beautiful to read, thank you!!!!