Some have become familiar with an approach to addiction called "the cognitive method." If you have been helped by this approach, consider the following ultimatum from Guard:




Several people have been sober for weeks on this method. When you get sober this way you recognize the truth. Addiction to lust is not a disease, it's a choice. As a result you don't come back and post anything. You would just be saying that the emperor has no clothes, and the emperor doesn't like hearing that. But what about other people getting well? So please email Guard if you want others to get help.

You might think that I cannot be removed from the web site because I can just back as another user. It's true, if you clear your user agent state and anonymize your ip address. However I think eventually it would just lead to more frustration because the problem is not me, it's the belief of powerlessness. This whole web site is married to that belief. One user I healed of sexual addiction joined, exchanged ten or so messages with me, and left, and has been sober about seventy days. So the cognitive method doesn't really need a web site, it just needs an email address, because it's really therapy, therapy that works. At the end of the day there will be always be people who choose to believe that they have no choice but to lust if left to their own devices. So this web site is a natural choice.

Everyone else who doesn't like the cognitive method, most people I talk to get healed in three weeks on your own, and it takes maybe ten private messages back and forth to get started. Just send me a PM. You could still catch me before the powerless people throw me out. Time to leave the garden maze?

The way I see it, powerlessness simply means that once we start on the roller-coaster of lusting - we find it almost impossible to stop. And it also means that we have seen by our track record that our own power is not enough anymore, we need power outside of ourselves, group support and Hashem. It doesn't absolve anyone of anything. Even if we're powerless, we are still fully RESPONSIBLE for our recovery. There are MANY tools that can be used to combat this disease, including the cognitive method. Powerlessness means we can't ride the bull and control it, but it doesn't mean we have to ride the bull. We may not be able to control our lusting, but we can be FREE of it.

If you want to continue this discussion with me nederman, please do it off the forum and write me an e-mail at eyes.guard@gmail.com. Thank you.

The point of this site is to help people in their Shmiras Hainayim and Shmiras Habris in any way possible. We are in fact tolerant of all approaches to attain this. The Tapshic method is followed by some and many people follow bits and pieces of different programs. In truth, the whole 90 day chart does not really fit in with the 12 step approach. And yet there are no complaints about those members. The complaints concerned a person who attempted to ram his method down everybody’s throat and consistently scoff at the feasibility of the “powerless” or 12 step method. That was and is the whole issue. It is ironic that this person feels that we are the ones who are being intolerant.

Exactly.

I would have no problem if nederman would let people know that he found a method that works for him, and he would share it with others. But we can't have a situation where someone consistently causes debates, and who discredits other methods/approaches or philosophies that have been known to work for many others.

The subtle difference between powerless and helpless have been the source of many debates on this forum. But it is a silly distraction to get caught up in the symantics. The 12-Step method makes it very clear that we are responsible for our recovery. Powerless does not mean helplessness, and powerless is never an excuse to continue. All it means (in the context of the 12-step program) is that our own will power alone is not effective in dealing with the complex problem of this addiction. We cannot think our way out, we need to act our way into a new pattern of thinking. And we do that through the steps, through the group, and with Hashem's power. Kovei Hashem Yachalifu Koach. Determination, however, is completely up to us.

Can Nederman have his own thread and not fight Dov? Battleworn had his own method on his own thread and everyone was happy then.

I have never spoken with nederman, but I find that I have been using the cognitive method before even knowing it had a name and I am now 63 days clean.

It all comes down to making a firm choice and I think that more often than not, the impetus of that choice is a bit of help from above. This site will not help anyone who does not make the choice that they really want to stop. I was lurking around this site for months while simultaneously doing my other garbage.

I know I have failed in the past even after 3 months of being clean, but I believe this time is really different.

People fail because they associate (cognitive) giving in with pleasure and normalcy- it's what they've always known to do. If they have a track record of trying to stop and failing, the past failures taint their renewed efforts to stop because in the back of their minds, they are already telling themselves that this time will be no different.

You need to convince yourself that you really want to stop and convince yourself that this time you will succeed. You need to look at patterns from before, see where and how you've tripped up and beware of them for the future so that when a situation like that arises, you know how to react. It also feels really good to be clean, life and relationships begin to improve as your focus changes from being on a computer screen to others who are important to you. When your wife turns to you and says that she notices how things are really getting better and she doesn't even know why, it speaks volumes and makes you feel really good about yourself! You need to harness those good feelings, and associate them with being clean (cognitive) and then when the temptation comes, you can then tell yourself that you have it better this way than with the shmutz. That is the ammunition for when temptation strikes. It really really works!

I am not a 12-step person and don't see myself ever becoming one. It's just not my cup of tea. Having said that, I will never discourage anyone that is currently working the steps. Everyone is different and what works for me may not work for the next guy and vice versa.

I'm not really sure why there's a problem with nederman arguing his point. I believe I've seen a certain someone on this forum bash someone else for using the Taphsic method (another method that doesn't sit right with me, but again just because it's not for me doesn't mean that it's not great for someone else) and that's a method that is highly recommended on this site.

PS. At first, I also had a problem with the whole powerless thing from the steps, but I'm starting to read that now as bittul - you're giving yourself (your power) over to do Hashem's will - not saying that you have no power. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nobody here wants to rehash the whole cognitive method issue. If it works for you, great! Keep up the good work.

So you're basically saying that if it works for me, I should shut up and keep it to myself.

In that case, I agree with nederman. This forum is a community of people who can relate to each other and give each other chizzuk. This is not called the 12-Step Forum.

me3 wrote:


As I posted in my previous post, there is a person on the forum who scoffs at people who are doing any method other than the 12-steps. Yet, instead of him being told off, he is heralded on this site.

There is no such person on this forum. There was a person recently whose idea of a Taphsic K'nas was to tear up money. Dov and I thought this was a silly thing to do. If you are referring to that, it was not a negative opinion on the method, but on the application. One of the biggest supporters of the Taphsic method is the founder of this website.

This is not an exclusive 12 step forum. If you want to write about how you are succeeding by following the cognitive method, type away! If you want to write how others who haven't been successful following the cognitive are doing it all wrong and how you can set them straight in 24 hours or your money back, than please keep your mouth shut.

Again I really don't want to get drawn into this discussion so this will be my last post on this topic. If you want the last word, its all yours.

The last word.