Dov,

Thanks for the post---I really appreciate your posts, because I think that in many ways, you were and I am having the same problem.

A few questions regarding your post. How did masturbation turn on you? Why did it make you feel miserable? I hope you don't mind me asking, but why did you see masturbation as a poison? How did it destroy everything around you? I guess what is so difficult from me is that alcohol and drug addictions...it is easy to see why they are bad for you. They can lead to all sorts of damages to a person's body, and can hurt others tremendously. Masturbation isn't like this---if I am a single guy, who am I hurting? Nothing bad happens from masturbating, besides for the aspect of the sin. And so this is where I am most confused, because if it is not hurting anyone, why is it poison? I know this may sound really bad, but I am just trying to be as brutally honest as possible, because otherwise, I will continue living in denial, and I no longer desire that.

Thanks all, always, for your advice.

When you masturbate you have to think about something that arouses you. Typically it's not an idyllic fantasy where you and your future wife are walking in a meadow holding hands, rather it's about you in charge and the lady being there just for your entertainment.

That is not how real women are. They have their own agenda. They have sex for selfish reasons, not to please you. All that stuff about romance and saying nice things is really because they need that in order to get aroused.

The women that act the way you like usually do it for money. There are some that are nice but they are usually not frum or not even Jewish because tznius is not conducive to giving your husband a wild ride in bed.

So basically these women only exist in your head and in the movies.

When you think about it over and over again you condition yourself to like that and to expect that, and when you get married your wife is going to see right through you. You don't even have to say a word.

Then - boom! You are going to wish you were still single. Imagine the embarrassment when your wife drags you in front of the rabbi because you are mean in bed and she feels used, and you ask her for disgusting lingerie and makeup. Or worse, divorce.

You also have an excellent halachic reason. There is a Gemara where there is a machloches between Abaye and Rava about whether you are allowed to hold your ever with only a rigid object, like a piece of wood, or even with a cloth. So you are running up against a rabbinic decree. So if you thought Hashem didn't really mind your masturbating, well, the chachamim mind. Would you carry stuff on Shabbos without an eruv?

Truetoself89 wrote on 05 Oct 2012 01:35:


Wow. Positive feedback is kind of rare. Thanks! But I don't feel that is 'brutal honesty', just honesty. And honesty is good enough, no? So thanks, for it's a good thing to share.

My history makes it clear that if I could have kept on acting out my lust I still would - but I cannot, because I am an addict. Addicts eventually use to excess and cannot afford to play the game any more. It's not yir'as Shomayim but enlightened self-interest that leads to the surrender. If the sin aspect really were enough to stop me, then I'd have never been a frum guy masturbating in the bathroom to porn.

So, to try to answer your question, my masturbation was certainly not the main problem. It was my preoccupation with sexual excitement - but even more, with my preoccupation with searching for sexual excitement. Masturbating (that is sex with myself) was only the 'reset' button for my vexing cycles of preoccupation and acting out. 'Finally getting it over with' was the end of the struggle...at least that struggle. Relief! Boruch Hashem!...for an hour, a day, a week maybe? In the meantime I'd hasten to use the reprieve and the clarity to 'do teshuvah'. But then the same cycle was repeated again a week or month later, for years and years. The swearing-off, the bargaining, only on Tuesdays, never on Shabbos, never with my hand, only this kind of porn but never using that kind...whatever. All lies, all the same, and always eventually getting more risky, more tasty, more painful.

What made me miserable? I guess it was the isolation, terrible isolation. Knowing the secrets I held, the double life I was living, the incredible weakness I really had when it came to sexuality. I knew this could not have been what Hashem created sexual pleasure for! When I got married it only got worse - much worse and much faster, after the first year or two. She can't compete with the secret sex goddess in my mind that porn and books created for me. I could not get enough, often enough, from a real human being with a real life of her own. We were on a crash course.

All that helped make me miserable, thank G-d. For the misery is what eventually makes us willing to quit. Then it makes us really want to quit. Finally it makes us ready to quit...but then we discover that we can't quit, if we are addicts. The majority of masturbating people are not addicts, of course. But many still are. They are the ones who do not quit even though they are sure they want to. Eventually though, the pain and demoralization grow so huge that we need to quit. Then we reach out for the help we really need - not before. Well, some people reach out earlier. It's what Guard calls, "hitting bottom while we are still on top". But those people often have a very hard time getting traction and complain, "How come that guy got sober right away but I keep falling?!" I remind them that "unlike you the 'other guy' got divorced over an affair, or is 43 years old, or has suffered twenty years longer than you have, etc. Waking up earlier is a slower process. Nu. But earlier is usually better - less wreckage. Keep slogging along, if this is what you eventually want."

I am writing for addicts, not for most guys out there - Frum or not - who like the way sex with themselves feels. naturally they will have a tough time kicking a sweet habit. But that is not necessarily addiction. Only the addict can ever know he is an addict - no one (even Hashem himself kvayochol) can ever convince him or her of that reality. Family interventions, arrests, getting caught, can help (search for "Captain Kirk" on this forum) - but in the end, the admission of defeat in the heart of the addict is the only and most precious thing that can lead him or her to finally open up fully and get the real help they need to stay open and honest. Self-honesty is the key to recovery.

So your 'brutal honesty' is actually recovery itself! Though you may not be an addict, at all, chaver. Remember, there is no mitzvah to admit defeat - it is actually just more shtus, if one is not truly addicted. Davening helps with this. Explicit prayer to your Best Friend helps. Did I answer your questions?

Hatzlocha!

- Dov

"So, to try to answer your question, my masturbation was certainly not the main problem. It was my preoccupation with sexual excitement - but even more, with my preoccupation with searching for sexual excitement. Masturbating (that is sex with myself) was only the 'reset' button for my vexing cycles of preoccupation and acting out. 'Finally getting it over with' was the end of the struggle...at least that struggle. Relief! Boruch Hashem!...for an hour, a day, a week maybe? In the meantime I'd hasten to use the reprieve and the clarity to 'do teshuvah'. But then the same cycle was repeated again a week or month later, for years and years. The swearing-off, the bargaining, only on Tuesdays, never on Shabbos, never with my hand, only this kind of porn but never using that kind...whatever. All lies, all the same, and always eventually getting more risky, more tasty, more painful."

Wow--I feel like you just summed up my past 10 years in a paragraph. It doesn't get much more real than that.

How did you know you were addicted? I know you said that the pain and demoralization got so huge, that you know you needed to quit, but how did you finally quit? When the YH fought really hard to convince you that it was good, what did you do?

Thank you so much---you don't even know how much you are helping

Thanks for the chizzuk and positive feedback, 'Truetoself89'!

There was a price. It got so painful that I saw I could not even act out my lust ever again without endangering that final spiral that would really ruin my life. I know enough people who have gotten arrested - frum guys - and that shame still did not stop them at all...so it is not about getting shamed into staying clean. It's about that trueness in the heart - when we see ourselves and say, "Oh, my G-d. I can't believe it. I will not be able to play with this toy ever again or I am toast." It's a terrible feeling. Nu. Growing up sucks.

And you asked how I stayed stopped.

I am not doing that. Hashem is doing it. That's not a joke and I am no tzaddik, that's for sure. But His incredible help comes at a price:

I needed (and still need) to stay open and honest with others who understand. Real people. I could never ever have gotten or stayed sober while using a 'username'. Please do not see this as an insult! I respect your use of a username here - for many people on this forum are not posting at all - just curious onlookers, weirdos, religious zealots looking to criticize or 'finally fix' everybody else, or whiners.

But puleese. "Oh, I can't tell you my name - but I will be open and honest about all the gory details of my problem..."? How is that meaningful honesty? I call that vicarious honesty. And it does not cut it for me and many others I know. If this is still unclear, consider reading:
http://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4109.msg111973#msg111973

I do that by establishing real recovery relationships with other recovering, sober, sex addicts like me. I do that by phone, in person by going to recovery meetings every week, by having an occassional lunch with another sober, recovering friend. And by staying open with them about what's going on with me in my sobriety and in my life today. One honest day at a time. I do it by making calls and by taking calls. By admitting my failures of the day, my worries - silly or not - and by avoiding anyone who likes feeling sorry for themselves. Whiners are posion, gevalt. It's catchy. And I can't afford to whine any more than I can afford to actively lust.

And no, public shaming is not the power of these relationships. Plenty guys fall and keep coming to meetings, and I am not 'deified' by being sober for some years. Everyone in the meeting knows that I am a goofball and in progress, not perfection. The power comes from being open, honest, and letting G-d in, for a change. As the Kotzker used to say, "G-d only is present where you let him in". An amazing insight, for any frum person to make. Shocking.

Hope I answered your question and hope it is not a burden for you. I am not asking you to do anything. Just sharing my experience. Life is geshmak this way, I am staying sober, thank-G-d, and marriage/family/Yiddishkeit are all totally different experiences for me than they used to be.

Dov,

Thank you...I think you have really helped me figure out what I am seeking, and how I want to do it. Now I just need to digest all of it. I just cannot imagine myself speaking to someone real, and them knowing my deepest and darkest secrets...after Ive kept this such a secret for so long. I keep trying to persuade myself that once I get married, iyH, life will be better. I won't need the porn, masturbation, or lusting, because everything will be so much easier--and if it isn't, I will face it then. I will have the real thing, and so life will be easier. And if not, I can do this myself. I don't need somebody to listen to my problems every day. I dealt with my really good friend dying of cancer a couple of years ago, and wasn't able to speak to anybody about it then either, because I hate seeking help. I like to believe that I can tackle life myself...But I know this is not true. I know this is just one more way for me to live in denial.

I read your Captain Kirk post, and was blown away...what you say there is so true. Completely and utterly the dichotomy that I live with every day. I feel like you went into my head and wrote down exactly what I feel---only you are not humiliated to put something like that in words, and be able to tell it to someone else.

Well I think this will probably be my last post. Thanks to your posts, I have come here and found not only myself, but also a solution...and its a lot to ponder--it's just a question of how much I am willing to give up to obtain this sobriety...

Thank you all for your help...I know each one of you takes out of your own time to answer posts, and this is something I will never be able to truly give back for. Dov, a special thank you to you for answering all my questions with so much insight---everything is always so thought out and honest. I cannot thank you enough, and if I ever do become sober (please G-d), I hope you will merit some of the z'chut for helping me...

Good Shabbos everyone

Aw, shucks. Hey, hatzlocha and if you need people to talk with about this I may be able to help you find some pretty easily.

Good Shabbos!

Hi guys,

Welcome Tuetoself

Im in a similar situation/ I relate to what your going through, only difference is that Ive been on GYE for a while.

Tons of great things were said here already and I wish you hatzlacha in internalizing it and doing it.

Just keep posting and reading the GYE material.

Whats been working so far for me is actually recognizing and ACTING according to the realization that If im in a situation that leads to a situation that leads to a situation where im in trouble, that I have to nip it in the bud way back there in the begining. ex. free time, nothing to do, bored, tv, surf comp, see something, be a tzadik shtick, run away, come back to "double check" my email, surf some more.

NOO! Im not interested in that garbage.

I want to live life! I dont want to wake up one day and realize Ive wasted my life on nothing. and if you want to experience that fear of wasting our lives, just a taste as an incentive for the future think about all the times we HAVE done whatever we wanted, those so called "perfect" nights when everything is good to go. What did you get from it? NADA!

Hatzlacha

Sur mera, V'ASEH TOV! distance yourself from the problem with fences and then Immedietaly focus yourself on ASEH TOV!

Be Busy, accomplishment feels better than comfort, and heck you can learn while your laying down comfortably so bam thats a double whammy.

A guten shabbos

Hi guys,

OK...I have finally surrendered and know I cannot do it myself. I am masturbating 2-3 times daily, and I realize that I cannot do this myself. So where to begin? Dov, should I PM you for people to speak to?

Thanks for all the help

Truetoself89,

Thanks soooo much for getting Dov to post all that!

Reading such post & hearing such stories is what is helping me in my journey!



P.S. Thank you, Dov, for writing it!

Truetoself89 wrote on 11 Oct 2012 16:27:

TTS89: Sure, just PM me any time.


YH: thanks for the chizzuk!