I hope to share my take on your questions when I have a little more time.

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notpashut wrote on 26 Jan 2012 04:59:


No, I feel this is not what 'powerless' means, at all. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'ilmolei ozro, eino yachol lo' and is not the flipside of 'hakol bidei Shomayim chutz miyir'as Shomayim', at all.

Whether I am in control or not is a simple fact: if I cannot stop having sex with myself (most folks call that 'masturbation') or with anyone other than my wife, or if I am repeatedly drawn to porning out or following women, exposing myself to others, or staring in windows (voyeurism)...then I am not truly in control. As they say in dog training, "if your dog has not yet learned to come to you when called, then you do not yet have a dog (for you will lose him)".

It's simple, very simple. If a guy is 'against' masturbation (cuz it's ossur) and yet is still doing it regularly or semiregularly and thereby taking risks with his family life or job by acting out his lust, then he is not in control.

True, if he has not yet tried to stop, then he may indeed have the power to remain free of the habit - then let him try! Please! I am serious, not poking fun.

But most of us here are frummies and have been trying for years! OK, so some may not have really tried, yet. So then let them!

But in the end, those who keep staying clean for a week, a month, and always plotz...keep finding themselves back in the hole again, needing it so badly that they finally explode and 'give into it' just so they will not have to keep fighting it....are probably unable to stop. It is not a hashkofah issue, but a simple observable fact.

In early recovery we usually discover to our dismay that we really do not want to quit, and that no matter how many times we cried underwater in the mikvah after tikkun Klali, we are actually terrified about the prospect of never using that sweet, warm, loving porn and sex with self ever again. But that is another layer of self-honesty that comes after finally admitting that I have been beaten. Period. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with the YH. It is coincidentally an addiction that uses a natural taivoh.

And the second indispensible admission after our powerlessness, is the admission that tomorrow actually does not exist yet. It is not a hashkofah matter, either! It is just a simple, observable fact. Only today, is actually here. So we cannot give up anything for the rest of our lives, for the rest of the year, or even for the rest of the week! All we really have to deal with is today. Goyim are the same, everyone is the same in this. And 'scheduling' for tomorrow is today's job, so please do not get confused about that trick.

And Hashem (who is very, very smart) asks us only for today's avodah, when he says the word "hayom" many times in the Torah. Not because addiction and recovery have anything to do with being good or frum - they do not. They are before being good, and before being frum - they are Derech Eretz that is Kodmah laTorah. Or, "sanity", as the 12 steps refer to it. Active perverts cannot be ovdei Hashem, period, any more than shoteh's can. Sure, they can pretend to be...lots do - so? But they really only have the 'inner keys', not the 'outer keys'. The P'ri is inaccessible if you do not deal with the Shomer laP'ri first. They are not even in the room yet!

Does this make sense?

dov wrote on 26 Jan 2012 18:49:

Dov. You're having self-esteem problems lately...  :o

I have been busy the last couple of days....working like crazy and I have not been in touch.

I am not going to get into the dramatics (feeling like I may have control this time, but really knowing I don't) but after a week clean i failed tonight.

Its so strange...for like 5 days I was amazing. It was like I was taking my lust and transferring it to "somewhere" else. Then slowly by slowly I realized it was conquering me. I had a couple of hard victories but today it became too much.

I have read at times that when you have a major victory it becomes easier....so not the case for me. If I win today I know it is just temporary and the lust will be back tom. Its so crazy...it takes like one second of insanity, of losing your head, and all your work crumbles.

It always starts the same way. I never jump straight to the p**n, i always dance along the boundaries ex. google searches etc. I justify this to myself as innocent curiosity, but before I know it the dust settles and I have fallen. Its like I lose my sanity for a couple of minutes and wake up to a bad reality. Does anyone experience this?

Dov,

Something you mentioned in your last post on this thread resonates with me, and that is...do I really want to stop?? I mean of course I do..I  curse the day I ever fell into this schmutz....But what do i want to stop? I feel like i want to stop doing something wrong, addictive, something that kills me and my family, my time, my life...but I am not sure if I want to stop p*%n.

Does this make sense?

Who wants to stop p***?  Not me.  I love it.  It's pure cocaine.

I had to stop.  Because it was part of the behavior pattern (addiction) that was destroying my mind, my marriage, my life.

Now about this "innocent" surfing.  Sure I relate.  That's the oldest trick in the Y"H's book.  He's not going to tell you "Notpashut, look at porn."  You'll say "no way, get lost Bozo."  So he says, "just look at this "clean" website.  Next thing you know he has his noose around your neck.

Now stand up tall, wipe yourself off, and be clean again.  Today is a new day.  Guard your eyes.  Guard your mind.  Don't go anywhere near the boxing ring.

Hi NP, First of all, as we say here KOT! Don't look back, just get up and move on.

You make some really great points.  You describe CFS (Coin Funnel Syndrome) really well .  Let me explain.  Have you ever seen those coin funnel wishing well thingies?  Well in case you haven't, I'm posting a picture.  You release a coin and it starts to make a wide orbit around the wide top part of the funnel.  It goes round and round making slightly smaller orbits until at the very bottom it is spinning very fast.  Finally it drops into the hole below.

For me, that is the anatomy of a fall.  Something catches my eye, maybe at the grocery store.  I don't fall right then.  It gnaws at me and I mull it over.  They something else triggering comes along.  I take another sip, an "innocent" Google search.  The sips become more frequent and more significant until eventually... I fall :-[.  Usually one fall leads to another until somehow I manage to stabilize for a time... until the next coin starts to orbit again.

Now while the coin is making it's wide orbit, it's not that hard to catch and take it out of the funnel.  As it gets lower and lower spinning faster and faster, it becomes much more difficult to catch.

The trick is to catch the lust in the early stages (or even better avoid it altogether - a tall order for people like us).  Even better, call a friend so he can help you catch the coin before it drops.

It [i]does[/i] get easier over time, but it never goes away completely and there may be difficult periods.  You will see on this forum that even people who have long streches of sobriety struggle at times.  Early intervention is key... and sometimes some raw will power is necessary.  But, if you rely on will power alone... well you are not likely to see different results.  Eventually, the coin will drop .

Finally, yes we all want to stop... and at the same time we all don't want to stop.  You got it.

If you are interested in the science of thos coin thingies, here's a link www.funnelworks.com/science.html .

notpashut wrote on 02 Feb 2012 00:16:


The whole thing makes sense. The stuff you wrote at the beginning - it is the way it really is. The guys who give high fives and say "good job" when we have a week, 90 days, ten years, or whateve...they mean well. Hey, should we not celebrate! Of course we should. Of course we should encourage, and even high fives are in order.

But it is the spirit of the celebration that is the issue, not the act. For some it is fine, but for some - maybe including you - it is poison and actually horrible.

And you make the best case for this in your share, above.

Just because I have had a week during which lust is no challenge for me at all, means nothing at all - today. But it is not as the 'aveirah and zera levatola crowd understand that, at all. 'Yitzro she odom misgaber olov b'chol yom' does not explain it, at all. And it is not because I am losing 'madreigos' or my 'yir'ah'. I am an addict, as my track record proves to me. And quite simply, recovery is one day at a time, and the addiction is one day at a time. Reality is one day at a time. There is no way to pray for a sober year - even on Rosh Hashanah, I never, ever do that. Cuz it is stupid, and Hashem does not like stupid very much. Especially on Rosh Hashana.

I daven for one sober day - the only day that I have, and the best day of all to be sober in my entire life: Today.

That is not a cutesy tutesy trick, moshol, or pep-talk. It is just the truth.

(And for those who 'wonder' how the Tefillos of R"H are about the whole next year, I have a simple answer for myself: That's G-d's problem, not mine. My job is to pray for today - and since it is Rosh Hashanah - the head, or mind of the year - that means that by doing today's avodah right be"H, the year is affected automatically. But that is not my business, only His...thank G-d!)

'Yitzro shel odom' is (of course) not referring to addicts. I am subject to ruining everything with my lust, simply because I am still sick. I have no self-esteem problem with that. Why should I? I don't need a pat on the back - because my life is better. That's good enough, and will probably be good enough for me till the day I die.

For those who revel - or insist that they ought to revel - in 'their' success, I have no argument. Gezunderheit, do it! Experiment away. And if you make it (whatever that means), great. But I and others have done that - and failed terribly. I did it for years, and all I got was sicker and sicker. It is not what Hashem wants for me.

Pure cocaine. Yup. That's why you need a nechomah - that is, G-d. And it needs to be a real nechomah - like porn, fantasy, and orgasm (cocaine). Saying they are evil or bad misses the point entirely! They are great - to me. Aren't they? Their value to me is why I chase them (in my addiction) even at great cost to me in money, time, relationships....it is classic mesiras nefesh, really. Just not for Hashem...well...we are not in the 2nd step here, so I'll leave this discussion as it is. Suffice it to say, that if I keep chasing it, it is precious to me - like deveikus baShem is supposed to be. This has nothing to do with right or wrong, good or bad. It is just a fact about us. And facts need to be accepted, not fought. Once we accept the truth, we will be able to see what to do about it. If we fight it, we will get confused with righteousness, piety, religion, and other things that are irrelevant to what is wrong with us.

Make some sense?

Dancing on the edges is just a way to experiment with being able to control a thing that is precious to us, yet we cannot control. It is an eighteen-wheeler stuck in 4th gear...are you an expert trucker? Then maybe you can get it under control. Go ahead and find out, if you like. No one is stopping you - except those who see all this as a religious tragedy, plain and simple. They will cry for you and wish they could grab you and tie your hands, no doubt.

Apparently, Hashem is not like that. Avinu sh'baShomayim allows you and me to learn the hard way, if that's what we choose. A real gentlemanly and good 'parent', He is. 

Hatzlocha.

Bumping this to the top. It’s a response I had years ago. I’m struggling mightily now, but maybe revisiting this conversation will help me and another Yid. 

NeiroYair wrote on 05 Sep 2023 02:39:

It's a small thread but weighty on content; thanks for bumpin' and welcome back good fellow.

Godspeed to you

NeiroYair wrote on 05 Sep 2023 02:39:

Ouch! what are you struggling with?

Thank you for bumping this thread. I can relate to it very much. Wishing you much Hatzlacha.  

Thanks @Cordnoy and everyone who responded. Problem is, I post, get better and then run away until…I’m back again. 
Just very lonely and not feeling understood. Thank G-d I have a very good reputation and it’s exhausting fighting to keep it up and find my medicine for my drug of choice: Lust

neiroyair wrote on 20 Dec 2023 13:46:

Rereading what you wrote years ago what Dov answered. After being thru this myself, I ahve to admit that the biggest thing was to do just this,
Sit and think for a long time, what I really want, be honest:
Yes, I enjoy all sexual activities, Porn,masturbation, erotic books, etc, anyhting that will give me that sweet euphoric feeling, that heart pumping that im guessing a fat guy feels when climbing stairs (I still wouldnt become fat to feel that)
Yes, I dont know hwo i can ever stop feeling or enjoying those things.
But, I very much also enjoy other things, Learning, Davening, My family, Talking to Hashem, feeling close to Him, Working, etc.
The problem is that those 2 roads leads in very different directions. Which one do I really want?

You gotta figure it out for yourself and nobody can help you there. I can only tell you my thoughts.

After sifting my brain thoroughly, I came to the conclusion that I choose the holier path in life, I know I can live till 130 without EVER having any sexual pleasure, but I CANT live one day without Learning, Davening and feeling the holiness of Shabbos. I refuse to let that go! My real life is too important to me to waste by running after this drug.
So, once I had that clear, I was able to create a very long list of reason why indulging in lust is terrible for me, things that really matter to me.
And then, I practiced Diffusion, Its one of the great tools i learned in the F2F program. Basicaly, I teaches you how to view your desires as something outside of you and not yourself. So when a desire or urge comes my way, I would tell myself " I know that "I" dont want this, because of the list of reason i had, however, this seems so good and exciting, yes it does, but thats just a thought that is stuck in my head from my past since I now know what I want.

I wish you the best in your journey.