ZemirosShabbos wrote on 15 Sep 2011 14:13:

Zemmy, you're terrific, I was just looking this up!
There is nothing wrong with sincere tears. It says that whoever becries the death of Bnei Aharon on Yom Kippur will not see his children go to the other side. Avade, that means sincere tears, not "bringing yourself" to cry.
I think people are afraid of true emotion (the hard shell Alex reffered to), so if you feel like a faker after a good cry, maybe you're just protecting yourself from realizing you just had a truly emotional experience, NOT that you were actually faking the crying.
It's true, too, that tears of desperation are tachabulois hayetzer and a sign of weak emuna.
I never heard an avoida of tears being pinned against avoida of simcha. There is time and place for everything. The Tanya quotes from Arizal regarding tikkun chatzois in reference to joy following a heartfelt and tearful cheshbon hanefesh.
Myself, I'm an easy crier. While I take no credit for it other than my emotional instability, I think it's important to realize that tshuvo meAhava (per Dov's post) can only come on the footsteps of tshuvo meYir'o, and there should be plenty crying in the latter.

There is such a thing as tears of happiness too....

Rav Menachem Mendel of Kotzk had a different answer than Rabbi Brody's:

Why are there gates on the gates of tears - if (as the gemorah says) "they are always open"? (kind of like 7-11's)

He answers:

"because they need to close for tears of shtuss. (that's the way I heard it)

And I ask: Why not let them in?

How many times did we assume we were sincere...then we go masturbate our heads off an hour later? Something was wrong. Not everything, just something. There is a beautiful line in AA's "12&12" book on this and it explains to me exactly why it is best that He does not "allow those tears in" (by "in", I mean: to allow them to really affect our behavior positively):

"This answer has to do with the quality of faith
rather than its quantity. This has been our blind spot. We
supposed we had humility when really we hadn't. We supposed
we had been serious about religious practices when,
upon honest appraisal, we found we had been only superficial.
Or, going to the other extreme, we had wallowed in
emotionalism and had mistaken it for true religious feeling.
In both cases, we had been asking something for nothing.
The fact was we really hadn't cleaned house so that the
grace of God could enter us and expel the obsession. In no
deep or meaningful sense had we ever taken stock of ourselves,
made amends to those we had harmed, or freely
given to any other human being without any demand for reward.
We had not even prayed rightly. We had always said,
“Grant me my wishes” instead of “Thy will be done.” The
love of God and man we understood not at all. Therefore
we remained self-deceived, and so incapable of receiving
enough grace to restore us to sanity.

Few indeed are the practicing alcoholics who have any
idea how irrational they are, or seeing their irrationality, can
bear to face it. Some will be willing to term themselves
“problem drinkers,” but cannot endure the suggestion that
they are in fact mentally ill. They are abetted in this blindness
by a world which does not understand the difference
between sane drinking and alcoholism. “Sanity” is defined
as “soundness of mind.” Yet no alcoholic, soberly analyzing
his destructive behavior, whether the destruction fell on
the dining-room furniture or his own moral fiber, can claim
“soundness of mind” for himself."

So, if He were to give us something for nothing (which is all we really want and expect until we are in real recovery), we'd be in much worse shape. For many, this means being doomed R"l to losing jobs, marriages, and for some, their lives. Nu. Yeish koneh olamo b'sha'ah achas. Perhaps a final moment in real, broken-hearted recovery is worth all the destruction reaked upon chayey Olam hazeh. A sad thought, but maybe true. And what of the children, wives, friends crossed, the chillul Hasheim....I wonder.

We have work to do today. Tomorrow does not matter.

dov wrote on 15 Sep 2011 16:26:

Are you saying that if a person does not change, then his tears are not sincere?  I don't necessarily see a stirah here.  Many people here are crying out because they are acting out.

There is a world of difference between someone who cries his eyes out when he hears about the sufferring of a child in Brooklyn R"l - and the person who is actually willing to lift a finger to do something for the family. 

Chaza"l do not say "Those who cry over the churban will be zocheh to see it's rebuilding". They say "Those who mourn over it will. Crying, per se, is not what He is after. As they say in AA: "It's an inside job."

Plenty of us have shed tears about our addiction! And then what? I cried and screamed in the lonely cavern of my car almost every time I was on my way home from acting out. I did it again and again.

I am not saying that his tears are not sincere, at all. I am saying that they do not matter. We have far more important things to do that cry. We need to have a change of thinking and priorities. And that always hurts a little. And I do not think it ever ends. I and everybody else I know in recovery are continuously changing and letting go of goofy thinking, at some level, like peeling an onion. And for me it would be completely farfalen without sobriety in the backdrop. Sobriety is what forces the change of thinking, nothing else really works.

dov wrote on 15 Sep 2011 16:51:

Ok, now I am starting to hear you.  You are just saying, don't equate crying with change. If that's what you're saying, I'm with you.  I do think it can lead to change.

gibbor120 wrote on 15 Sep 2011 16:57:


A complete Grama....

Just want to make sure this one is buried.  There are many ways to make millions, a person doesn't have to give up mzl for it.  Just give more charity, and you're assured more wealth.  Or daven really well on Rosh Hashinuy, since your wealth for the year is determined then.

If you're a proud, unrepentant person who does mzl, and have no fundamental spiritual yearning to give it up, all I can say is EEWWWW YUCKY!!!

Ontheedgeman,

How can you attack another Jew like that?  You think because you're shomer hahabris, you can cause agmas nefesh to another yid?  Maybe you're allowed to eat pork and cheat in business too, because you're so good in avoiding one issur?

When did I ever write that I was "unrepentant"?  I repented!  I did Tshuvah!  I've been clean for 8 days now!  Why would you try to discourage me?

8 days. Keep it rolling my friend.

truck away.

Whatever the reasons, 8 days is great! Keep it up!

Milehashem,
The way I understood your approach, you want to come clean because you know it's spiritually damaging.  But you didn't find that alone to be a strong enough motivation.  So you added the external motivation of money.  And it's working for you!  You can go into Rosh Hashana and achieve a new connection.  Mi l'hashem? Milehashem!
Continued Hatzlacha and a Ksiva Vchasima Tova
Alex

Thanks to everyone (else) for your words of encouragement.

It wasn't a clear issur to me.  I can't give details or I'll be censored again, but for varying reasons, it wasn't a clear issur to me.

What was clear was that a flow of blessed money is directly connected to shmiras habris.

Then, I finally threw away my pride and asked a posek directly about it.

He explained that it's really assur.  He said that it is THE test of a Jewish man in this world.  He said, "Did you really think all of that mussar talk was to stop people from wearing shatnez?"



So I started to be very careful shmiras habris.  See here:

www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4525.0

Now that I have that formula, I know that I will never do this particular sin ever again.

Wall of Honor here I come!

"If you are proud and unrepentant", the aveira is yucky and ewww.  If you have repented, did Teshuvah, you are a holy tazadik and I want to be around you!!!

I didn't meant to cause your neshama any pain and I'm sorry if I did.  I do find certain "aveiros" yucky and ewy, and if you think my loshon is harsh, what about what the Torah says!  lol
Whoever said I was shomer habris?  I have my own issues too and I am equally repulsed by my own conduct.  And you are correct, although I don't eat flat-out traiffe my kashrus leaves much to be desired.

All this to say, I did not ever mean to hurt your sensitive neshamah in the least. I assumed guys who are hungry for money are more "thick skinned" (in the dog-eat-dog world of money makers) but I sense you are a G-d-sent sensitive soul and I sincerely apologize if my words were too harsh (including this note!).

Chazak on this awesome journey.  Please message me your mechilah before Rosh Hashinuy, if I have earned it.

Kol tuv b'ahava.

milehashem wrote on 27 Sep 2011 15:17:

Wow! Yasher koach! Especially the part about throwing away your pride. That is very difficult to do.  Living by what your posek says isn't always easy either. So, double yasher koach!