Hello, On a very tragic day to klal Yisroel (on the barbaric murder of a young innocent child Hashem Yinakem Domov)

The more I read here, the more I see how bad it could get. I will admit that I have problems (I am not sure if it is at a state of addict ) not to minimize my issues and they are a lot but I'm not sure when one is considered an addict. A lot of posts certainly in the married section deals with people who have concerns with being intimate with their wives either during or after they have gone through treatments and it seems that lots of posts their wives are well of their problems and thus the issues at hand . At this time my wife is not aware of many of the issues I have (and I do not plan on telling her directly b/c it will certainly be non benificial), so when I disscuss some of my own issues peoples replies many times deal with the assumption that I am already in treatment or that my wife is well aware of whats going on, which in turn is like comparing apples to oranges to some degree.

Another point Re: going out once  a week. It is a great idea if it can be done but who has time? I know its a worthwhile investment..... and all that, but with 8 kids, homework, bedtime, supper, laundry, cleaning the house ( no my wife hates cleaning ladies) going to learn with a chavrusah, basically you come home late in the evening and if she is not doing one of the above she is tired & possibly already sleeping. While just sitting & shmuzing is also a great way "to spend quality time" In a very small house with many kids there is guaranteed interruptions. I say keep it as status qua, try and get out as often as you can,if she wants then fine, if not not. keep building on the emotional sides of things hope that the thoughts, shmiras anayim gets better, and be happy with what ever comes your way in the bedroom. ( if she enjoys  and shows only passiveness so be it, after all she works hard she is tired appreciate what ever you can get 

yetzer wrote on 13 Jul 2011 22:56:

You can be a mild addict, get out of it now before it gets worse who cares about the label of what it is.[quote="yetzer" link=topic=4076.msg111232#msg111232 date=1310597760]

yetzer wrote on 13 Jul 2011 22:56:

I'm in your boat my wife has no clue, you prob shouldnt tell her.(just what i think)

yetzer wrote on 13 Jul 2011 22:56:

You sound much better looks like you have seen what is going on, the more you are into these things the more you become unhappy with your wife's love. Its a fact and i hope you see it clear, you continue working on your self and your relationship with your wife and it will get better.

I am not sure I am much better, but I definatley see whats going on. I think this is more of me "throwing in the towel" & just try and get by with what I  have because there is nothing that I can do to really change anything re: the issues I have with my wife. I just hope I am not a big talker & then it comes back to bite me. At the end of the day if she is complacent with what she has & doesn't need more ( in the bedroom, going out on dates, going away overnight  without the 8 kids , etc... thats how it will have to be & i will try & survive without it.

Hi yetzer I was reading your previous posts.It sounds to me that YOU are ok with the state of your marriage is that true?

yetzer wrote on 14 Jul 2011 02:55:

throwing in the towel is sometimes a big success, and i don't think there is no way to make things better, you got some good advise here on GYE, even if you use what you can slowly you will see improvement, but as i said you have to guard your eyes first and then you will "see" (yes pun intended) life and your wife in a better light.

Yetzer,

Hello

It seems that you have two separate, yet slightly related issues:
(1) Your marriage, and the roles and responsibilities that you and your wife have.
(2) Your porn/inappropriate material/eyes issue.

(1) is all about the two of you, and (2) is about you.  You feel that (1) might be the cause of (2).

Am I right so far?

(1) is all about expectations - yours of your wife, and your wife of you.  Your catalog of issues in section (1) include:
-Dressing Frum & Frumpy, rather than Victoria's Secret
-Conjugal passiveness, rather than porn-star-queen
-Acting like a wife with responsibilities to the household, rather than an A-lister socialite

(2) is all about how you satisfy yourself, including:
-Stuff

So - am I off the mark yet?

So issue (1) is about what you deserve from your wife, and issue (2) is how you give yourself what you deserve, or feel you need.

You mention that you had issue (2) before you got married, and that marriage was supposed to cure issue (2).  Now, you seem disappointed that you aren't getting what you felt you needed, and thus the issue that you had before you married hasn't gone away.

You feel that if your wife becomes sexier, more sexually active & attentive to you and your needs (all reasonable, imho), you will be cured, or at least not need to fight so hard.

Has my logic failed yet?

Here are my thoughts:

Firstly, you need to consider what you have and what you need.  Be reasonable about it.  Be objective.  Think clearly about what you don't need.  Don't think in terms of trade-off, or "if this, I'll give up that" - be clear and honest about what you do need, and what you don't.  I imagine that "do need" would be some time to connect with your wife, or "something more than a cold-fish approach" in the bedroom.  Something that you don't need could be hard pornography.  What you have could be a capable cook/cleaner/childminder/etc.  Sounds clinical, but it's one way to count your blessings.

I would make a list, and read over it, were I you.

The next thing to do is to align expectations with your wife.  If she does not respond, because she thinks that this is not serious, make her realize that you are, indeed, serious.  The biggest issue I am reading into your posts (which are necessarily one-sided) is that your expectations from marriage are misaligned.  I would bet money that your wife is unhappy in some aspects of your marriage, and wonder if you know how you are not meeting her expectations.  From taking out garbage, to checking out other women - I have no idea.  Do you know what she wants, and makes her tick?  That, (plus a little skill) is usually the fastest way to seduction.

After making the first list (which is about you), then perhaps make a second list (your wife really shouldn't see the first one!  Of course!) about expectations, and what you are willing to give up/do in addition.  Then (without showing her the list), have a discussion and encourage her to think about it (give her a couple of days, unless she is immediately enthusiastic).  Then compare them, and let the negotiations begin.

I don't really know you at all, or your wife, or your marriage.  That approach might not work for you.  But at least it's something that you can think about.

The reason that I think you should look to yourself before your marriage is because that issue clearly predates the marriage.  You went into marriage feeling entitled.  You still feel that way (and there is no reason not to feel a little entitled to reasonable things), but perhaps to an excess.  Marriage can help pornography/masturbation/pride obsession go away.  But not because it feeds it.  It can help because it can make you consider other people more, and push away your need to feed yourself constantly.  It can help you realize that there are other people who need you more, and that giving can be better than taking.

But if you go in looking for satiation as a cure...  Well, I don't know anyone for whom that worked out too well, without working it as in the previous paragraph.

One more thing.  A question.  (No, I'm not Colombo)  Are you good at really listening to your wife, with a clear heart and open mind?  Do you ever make time to do so?

Edit:
Oh, by no means, under any circumstances, say "you just don't do it for me, you frumpy cow" or any derivation thereof.  There are positive ways to phrase almost anything, where you are giving power to the other, rather than taking status away.  Quite important for wives, I find!   Like "I have feelings that only you can evoke, and X would help so much" instead of "To get my fix of short skirts, I stand outside the local sem".  Or "I feel lost and alone without some quality time with my wife, and really need that, and think we could both enjoy it" instead of "Stop being lazy and let's go out".  Or if empowerment doesn't work, then "you need time out" can help.  But I feel that the empowerment approach is a bit more honest, since it addresses your own needs

Yossi that was great.  Thanks

Yossi wrote on 14 Jul 2011 13:49:


Notwithstanding the clarfication in the edit, I am just want to reiterate should the need arise to convey you are "serious", never, never, never use the "D" word with your wife, or anything that sounds like that.  Hatzlacha

yetzer wrote on 13 Jul 2011 22:56:


I heard a great shiur (I'm blanking on the speaker) entitled "The Main Thing is to Keep the Main Thing the Main Thing."  We spend our very busy lives putting out fires.  Whatever has to be dealt with because it's pressing in our faces, that's what we deal with.  And they're important things.  Very important things.  But sometimes the most imortant things don't get done, simply because they're not pressing us.  They're not a fire we have to put out.

Your marriage is the most important thing.  It is the engine that drives your children's emotional growth.  Marriage is the end and beginning every serious bochur and girl works toward and looks forward to.  It is Hashem's finest masterpiece in this world.

Just do it.

Alex

@Yossi:

That was brilliant!

yossi- thanks what you wrote is great!! 

I did neglect to mention how much I enjoyed Yossi's post.  Besides the insight, I like the writing style.

Reb Yetzer. We've all got our work cut out for us.

One day at a time.

Hello Yetzer,

Welcome to the forum.

About all that wife stuff...

Wives don't really understand.  Sometimes it becomes necessary to disclose some things to her, but definitely not at this stage in the game.  You need someone else to confide in who can understand the struggle.

Also, I have discovered that part of the lust addiction is just that--lusting after other people.  But another part of it is--wanting to be lusted after.  So, if we convince our wives to start playing out our fantasies, it only makes things worse.

I actually took that route--if only my wife would etc.  It seemed good, on the surface.  But it was really wrecking our relationship, and we have both been hurt by it.  Our wives are not "kosher" lust toys; they are human beings.

--Eye.

Thanks yossie. A lot of excellent points as well as hitting on many of the issues. Briefly, I said & will reiterate that while many of this issues were around before marriage I don't think I ever said that marriage would solve the problem, I had hoped that Marriage would quell some of the problem because of "pas besalo"  having the actual physical outlet of sexual relations "Bemutor loch" I had hoped would help. For many years in the marriage it was very much ho hum with intimacy ( other than the fact that between being pregnant or nursing didn't help much) it was discovered through joint therappy that although I was a very very helpful husband(not to brag) I was not very emotionaly supportive enough outside the bedroom,thus the very passive approach for my wife inside the bedroom. Having worked on this diligently (to a 90% approval rating from the wife in this issue; always being warm, caring, soft spoken etc....) this helped a lot in the bedroom, however, (nothing to do with entitlement etc...) I can't say that it has been enough on her part ( meaning if I have come this far most of the time to do wat u asked , why can't you come this far in wat i ask?  not that I am asking as you say " victoria secret, porn star, a list socialite"  rather a wife who understands her husbands needs who therefore can dress a bit more edgy, who could be a bit more aggressive in the bedroom, who could take care of household needs and be a wife who is attentive also to her husbands intimate needs. I offered hundreds (no exaggeration) of times that she gets cleaning ladies etccc.. but she always refuses ( for 1 reason or another) so obviously it would be hard to be rested for intimacy if your forever cleaning, going to bed late because of laundry etc... So while maybe my needs are great I don't think I am asking for so much. By the way many of these things have been discussed with her ( certainly what she needs) although she rarely likes to talk about my issues even when they are laced with many compliments how she has improved etc........... (because it makes her uncomfortable to talk about it )  . I will try and respond with more after  Shabbos

Doesn't sound like a marriage, sounds like a business deal.

Again, our wives aren't our personal porn stars.  Even if you think you're not demanding all that much.

--Eye.

Hi eye. anonymous. Please expand on ur statement , not sure what you mean when you say "sounds like a business deal" . As far as wives not being our personal porn stars, I understand that they aren't but they should be willing partners (marriage not business) in maintaining/achieving the utmost as often as possible ( should we dare say 75-80% of the time) in the physical relationship the same way they expect & certainly deserve in the emotional, and all other aspects of the marriage. By the way even if they are not our personal porn stars are they at least our personal wife, who we adore their inner beauty/outer beauty, who we want to desire & only desire them etc.... so what does that end up entailing on their part? I agree that a  marriage is certainly to give, give, give, ( maybe I am so naive to think that while it shouldn't be expected there should be some degree of receive?)