ontheedgeman wrote on 11 Jul 2011 14:13:

not sure what you mean by "massage parlor" if you go just for a massage just from a women that is an issue but if that doesn't lead to m* then i have heard worse, if she does do that for you then its the same addiction in a different form......?

Thanks Alex again for your support. Regarding wives being tired, work hard all day, cleaning, cooking , taking care of the kids etc.. this is all true, and it's reasonable to think that wives cant perform @ peak levels at all times, however if they cant rise to the occasion 75-80% of the time they are contributing significantly to the problem. My main struggle mostly is not porn (at this time) but mostly impure thoughts especially when seeing other frum ladies dressed in ways that lure my thoughts there way. (which I admit again is my own problem) . I don't expect my wife to be like porn stars or anything like that helpfyi wrote about I know its not real & unrealistic.  All I want is for her to also be dressed like a lot of women, not necceserily with micro tight skirts just above the knee or tight blouses, but somewhat stylish with a bit of an edge. If its not in the realm of halacha to go like that outside than at least when she is at home (not @ times that she can't , not when serving supper/cleaning the floor/ holding 2 crying babies etc..) she should try & go like that and maybe the "Pas Besaloh" of knowing that you have a wife that is willing & able to go the extra mile might help tame the beast somewhat. (no guarantee b/c we no how hard the Yetzer Horah works.

P.S. How does one join the forum for married people, or is that off limits?

If you are married and would like access, please send us an e-mail to eyes.guard@gmail.com, so we can give your username access to this forum once you are approved.

yetzer wrote on 11 Jul 2011 18:59:

I wansent saying that it only comes from currently looking at porn it can very much come from looking at other wives as well. I have had the same exact same problem, i was not looking at porn and was just jelious of every other women on the street. That eventually led to me going to porn. When i was doing that i also was not happy with my wife and now that i guard my eyes it has gotten alot better, see my pm that i sent send you.

Two quick thoughts:

1. Many of us have experienced that the more we guard our eyes, the more physically attracted we are to our wives, regardless of how they look.

2. Your wife might be willing to wear something with more than just a little edge in the privacy of the bedroom.

3. (I can't count very well) Ultimately, you're working towards not lusting after your wife except b'shaas maaseh, so it won't really matter what she's wearing in the house.

Remember this is a journey, and to take it one day at a time.

Alex

Hi Alex,

You really are saying not so clear things. First not to check out your wife (which I think with all the problems an addict has) the one person I expect to check out is his wife. especially when she bends down to take something out of the oven etc... then one might appreciate/ desire her more etc... Then you say that the tachlis is to lust  Beshaas Maase @ which time who cares what she is wearing? Kol hatoraich b-erev shabbos Yochal Beshabbos. what is the whole point in foreplay, kissing, hugging Divrei Chiba that chazal talk about?  she should at least be wearing clothing (that the husband likes even with a bit of edge in the confines of the home that turns the husband on somewhat  (not in the  bedroom 5 minutes before they are together) if she won't wear these things at least then, I really believe she is aiding a bit in these probblems ( altho @ the end of the day it is my struggle to deal with & my responsibility) no one elses.
                         

Sorry if I'm confusing.
I think part of the confusion is that I'm clean for 2-1/4 years now.  In the beginning of my recovery, my wife was fair game -- muttar to think lustful thoughts about all day and to check out in every compromising position my lustful gaze caught her in.  After all, I'm a lustful guy, and it's her job to protect me from aveira by fulfilling my lusts.

I think that's about where you're holding right now, and kol hakovod.  Beginning recovery is very hard, and whatever it takes to make it work, works.

After some time, and after reading R' Arush's book (which is a must-read if you haven't yet), I chose to set out on the difficult task of overcoming the YH to lust after my wife.  Because thinking lustful thoughts about my wife, and getting turned on by checking her out willy nilly is like the alcoholic taking a drink.  So maybe a non-addict can enjoy checking out his wife's sexy bod and it doesn't do him any harm.  But  I'm a lust addict, and I have to adhere to a stricter code.  It's nothing to do with halacha.  It's about staying clean and sober.

Now having said that, perhaps you can ask your wife to buy one outfit that's a little edgier to wear around the house sometimes, and maybe even to wear it when you go out on date night.

ALEXELIEZER thanks. Maybe you are right, although I don't think such lustful thoughts about my own wife. I desire her, etc... but checking her out & enjoying I don't think for me is a problem. I do look at other women especially when they are  dressed a certain way & enjoy to look although I am not sure I am thinking lustful thoughts ( although any looking at ma sheloh mutar loch is a big concern.  Regarding wearing something a bit edgier on date night. What date night are you referring to . If in the bedroom I think a woman should wear often around the house edgier clothing so she could appear nice for her husband & not 5 minutes before going in to the bedroom. If you mean when you go out out "date night" in our 20 + years of marriage I am not sure I can count such a thing happening  on more than one hand.

yetzer wrote on 12 Jul 2011 17:32:


Maybe it would help to take her away for at least one night on a "romantic" getaway that might revive her, or just take her out to eat make it happen and if she says she doesnt need to say that you need it and who else you gonna go with?

I have offered many times to just go out to eat. She gets excited and maybe once a year it will get arranged, at  which time she will say lets do this again some time and then a year later hopefully we are doing it again.(Please don't tell me to hire the bay sitter and tell her we are going etc..... tried all of that already). regarding a "romantic getaway" also been discussed many times. She  is really not a big fan of hotels even if I say do it for me then we are back to the old forcefeeding which I despise (If she doesn't want to go from her on accord i am not interested).

its not just hotels you can do a fun trip or go the ceasers which is a whole resort, can't be she wont enjoy.

Too often in a frum marriage, the partners get so focused on their various responsibilities, the chinuch of their children, the running of the home. The couple can work great together as a team to run a smooth ship.

But the marriage falls to the wayside. The relationship between husband and wife is no longer important.  Until there's marital discord.

But marriage should be more than that.  Your relationship with your wife is still important.  Still in need of, and deserving of, attention.  And, my friend, you need attention. From your wife.  We all do. (not from your wife, though)

A marriage requires continued work to remain strong and grow.

You can have great sex and no relationship.

I have heard in shiurim from frum marriage counselors that any couple who doesn't make time for each other, that marriage is at risk.

Here's what worked for me.  We've been doing this for the past couple of years and it takes commitment.  We have a date night once a week.  It's the same night, so it's easy to remember.  Sometimes we just take a few laps around the block.  Sometimes we go out for dinner.  Sometimes I put a cap on, tuck in my tzitzis and we have a beer at a low-key bar & griil.  Sometimes we go into the den, tell the kids we're on our date, and just sit and talk.  In the beginning, it took some reminding (me reminding her) to make it an officially scheduled date.  Now we both know we're getting together.  These dates have greatly strengthened our relationship.  Somtimes we talk about the kids, the day, the money, divrei Torah we heard (sharing Torah is a great relationship builder).  And (l'havdil), after a beer or two, we've told each other some of our fantasies (which we later act on).  It's all in a day's work.

That's what I mean by date night.

Great Idea Alex. Now if you can make all  the arrangements every week ((which is almost impossible to find) have baby sitters to look after our 8 kids including 3 year old , 1 year old etc...  , get the kids in bed, etc.. I am game ( My wife does not feel the need for these date nights by the way even if "I want her to do it for Me" ).

To: helpfyi , am I to understand that you are suggesting Ceaser's in Atlantic City or Las Vegas? I am not sure if there is a worse place to go  for a Frum guy who is struggling to keep his eyes, his desires, his thoughts , in check. (other than Flatbush or Lakewood etc.. Where the Frum pritzus is waiting to snare you

yetzer wrote on 13 Jul 2011 16:45:

hi yetzer,
excuse my jumping in in the middle, just wanted to add a few words.

if you have 8 kids then the need for you to spend some 'exclusive' time with the wife is even more pronounced. may not be easy to schedule and implement but it is vital. to echo Alex's very wise words, if the relationship between spouses becomes one of shopping, changing diapers, paying bills, physical relations and going to PTA then when the kids are iy'h married and out of the house the spouses are like strangers who happen to share a room. (not saying you are like that, just illustrating a point).

devoting time to the kids is very important. but of no less importance is devoting time to the spouse. once a week is very reasonable. it is well worth it. i suspect that if you manage to get the wife to go along with the idea initially she will become it's strongest advocate with time.

if scheduling and babysitter's are a problem you can make a time later at night when it's quiet. not in the bedroom, rather at the kitchen table or on the couch. the focus should be on talking, not on physical relations. (pssst, here is a secret side-benefit of having a real emotional relationship with a spouse: the physical relations will be on a whole new level of fullfilment). also, having 8 kids can be a boon, as your oldest becomes old enough to do some light babysitting.
wishing you the best,
zs

yetzer wrote on 13 Jul 2011 16:45:

NO AND NO! you think those are the only ceasers in the usa? i mean the Poconos, there are 4 of them there they are kosher and private, check them out online, you can get very nice romantic rooms there.