Oh.

So about the thing you wrote above I said I'd post about:

The wife can't understand for she is not in your shoes herself. Thus, honesty with her is not really honesty. For you can tell her what happened - but she can't know what that really means. The humiliation is there...but that is of very little long term worth, and has nothing necessarily to do with actual recovery. At best, it will make your wife more powerful in your life, rather than give you integrity. And integrity means that you have a real, live G-d.

That's the only recovery there is, in the 12 steps. All the rest are great, helpful, but only half-measures. The meetings, the giving to others, the practicing of honesty, the gratitude lists, the stepwork, and the sharing of your recovery with others...all just tools. The actual recovery is only one thing: having a real G-d and a faith that works. Plenty of us have faith/ But obviously it is not working if we still worship pretty young women and their prettiness does stuff to us that we need so badly. Where is a working and useful G-d there?

Answer: It is in the pretty girl, that's where.

That is the first part of the 2nd step, BTW. The rest is accepting that there may be another G-d out there somewhere. One that really works for us, instead of one that just gets us in trouble. The pretty faces and body parts god just makes us miserable. We feel its power, don't we - but we always lose in the end. Chaza"l told us: Kol hanosein eynov b'mah she'eino shelo - af mah sheyesh lo notlin heimenu. We lose what we should have by taking what is not ours. The relationship with the wife suffers, whether we see it or not; our happiness and potential for satisfaction with her and the harchovas hada'as that Chaza"l told us our wives give us...are all lost by us not guarding our eyes. In other words, by lusting.

Your honesty is powerful! Step by step it goes. Be afraid of setting up your wife as your Higher Power. OK, so very attractive women are already a higher power for us - we do not need to bring in more false HP's!

Keep on the honesty track and you will be fine be"H. Keep letting go of your kovod, your lust, and your control, and give Him the reins more and more. That is what you have been doing, I believe, whether you see that or not. Ashrecha!

One more thing:

The way we customarily treat Hashem is the same way we learn to treat everyone else: give us stuff. Davening to Him is supposed to be for letting go, much more than it is for asking to get. We say Kriyas Sh'ma before tefillah so that we let go of our death-grip on our Olam Hazeh just a bit. Perspective is the key to sanity and sobriety.

Many of us need to be retrained in how to have a relationship with Hashem. In the process, all our relationships are slowly transformed. The wife really has little to give you, but you certainly have a lot to give her. Same with Hashem - we focus on what we can give to Him - in other words, "mesiras Nefesh" literally "giving over of myself" or "my desires" (as in "im yeish es nafshechem - if you desire"). The program calls it, "surrender" to G-d. Same exact idea, literally. This all had something to do with your posts above, though I can't remember just what it was....

Have a great evening!

Wow! Totally geshmak!  Intellectual candy!

dov wrote on 10 Jun 2011 21:32:


Dov,

Thank you for your perspective on this.  It took me five readings over a week, but I think I'm finally getting it.

For me, "to stop" isn't the hard part.  Once upon a time, I could not help myself, but now I think I can - I've not "fallen" in years.  It's the fear of what is potentially inside, and caring enough about it, at all times.  And building on having stopped the external actions (active pursuit and acting out), so as to internalize the cessation into my eyes and thoughts.  I act like a recovered person, I see like a recovering person, and I think like a battling person.  Don't read too much into that last sentence - the word choice is pathetic.  This leads me to believe I'm doing something wrongly.  But there is a wealth of material on here that I'm wading through, with some excellent tools and responses.

I'm not sure if I make sense there. :o

Anyway, thanks for helping to clear up my thinking.

And thanks for clearing up mine!

I think I have that problem.

I get so excited to stop and I can and I do.

But when a week goes by I stop caring at all.I actually start to doubt why im spending so much energy and time,how bad could it be....

"How bad could it be"?...

Well, families are being broken, children are suffering, Torah communities are falling way below the 'holiness' they claim to have, needless $$$ is being wasted and lost, deadlines are missed, personal dignity is a dream, precious time is lost lost.. (Let's not even bring shulchan aruch here)..

"The lips of a foreign woman drip with honey, but the end is bitter wormy wood" (mishle)..

One 'small ta'avah' then another eventually add up..

So I guess, not too bad after all.  No?

So....

Would like to update the oilam here.

I decided to be patient and see if anything about me changed or would change over a couple week period.

The results are in.

I overall do better guarding thoughts and eyes a lot better. I have small winning streaks.

But I fall and fall hard.harder than before. It used to be I would act out and finished everything would go away.

Now I am not just wanting to act out. I begin to toy with the idea of really going all out. Figuring out ways to act on bad thoughts. With other humans.

I don't know what it all means.

I did listen in on dc 12 step once. That's when I decided to be more patient with my progress. I don't want to commit the time and scheduling issues it would cause.

I find my major triggers are depression,stress, and sometimes good old s drive.
im working on restructuring my life to lessen stress but its harder than I thought.

I get scared now sometimes that if I don't act out ill end up doing something much worse.

Suggestions?

Yes. Have you ever written out your first step inventory candidly and completely, just for yourself?

If not, then I feel it is likely that you have not started the first step yet.

And by the way, there is nothing in the first step about stopping, no moral criticism of any kind, and it is not about the solution. It is simply a tool for facing the truth about your problem, and only that.

So what do you say? It's a bit of work. But what is this worth to you? And a phone call is not going to do this for you. It's pen and paper, some time, and letting go of a bit of fear and shame, that's all.

Just for yourself - for nobody else to read or listen to ever. Just for you to take to the grave with you - just like your very sweet and very secret porn and masturbation....all private secrets to the grave, right? I know this too. This writing is your entire sexual acting out history from the first memory of trouble in it, till the last drop of sex with yourself and lust that you used - that you write out on paper to yourself only. No prose, no poetry, no explaining away actions and no saving face, no showing off....just between you and you.

Tell us here when you are done writing it, if you wish, and then I'll suggest a next step, if you really want to have change that sticks.

That's my suggestion.

wannabehappy wrote on 21 Jul 2011 04:41:


this is no shocker, that is where this all ends up, you gotta get out while still on top, don't let it get there! you can do it listen to dov he can help you!