We are gonna try to have some fun with this one, sir...

You wrote:


How about this for a bad intro:
"You may not like me that much when you finish reading this, but I still like you!"

I bet you actually need very little chizzuk right now.  We are usually very clear about what's important in life and what is not, right after we act out. Acting out has a way of returning our sanity to us (for a short while). Problem is, it's a very uneconomical method of staying sane. Kind of like needing to bash myself in the groin :o with a 2x4 every few days so that never forget how sweetit is to actually feel comfortable. Oh, boy. Of course, I've been there many times.

Maybe you are different that I, but the only thing I really feel I need after acting out is for someone to make me feel better. 'Feeling better' is not recovery and has nothing at all to do with recovery. Sure, it happens to a person in recovery (after the common initial hellish period), but that is a side effect - not the goal. We are in recovery to stop acting out, period. Even if it makes us miserable.

Typically, our only motivation for actually stopping is that we cannot afford doing it any more. Not that we really, really don't like the way it makes us feel afterwards, or what it does to our wives, kids, or anybody else. Iyov was OK with G-d and accepted it all - till he got an illness in his very own body (look at the meforshim there). That was too much. We don't usually consider getting the help we really need until the stuff we are doing finally hits home and we cannot afford to do it ever again, even once....but we know full well that it's hopeless and that we eventually will, anyhow. In other words, that we have to.

That's powerlessness. It is not a religious or bechirah issue. it is not open to discussion. It is just a fact. We know we will do it again because 557 times so far, we were absolutely positive we would not - and then we did. Only when it gets too expensive and we can't afford to do it again, do we finally come to our senses (556 times too late!) and admit in shock, "I can't stop! Why didn't anyone ever just tell me that?!"

Then - if we are addicts - are we ready for starting recovery.

OK, so to get back to your thing: Where is the place for the spiritual answer, if the practical techniques are an effective weapon against lust obsession and the acting out habit?

My answer is this:

When these practical methods are actually working for you for six months or a year, then we can talk the question over. Till then, it does not seem that they are working. And if they are only working occasionally, then they are not working at all.

As they say in dog training, if your dog does not always come when called, then you do not have a dog!

Still friends?

PS. None of what I said will make any sense to a non-addict. If it really makes perfect sense to you, then I fear you may have the same chronic, progressive, and destructive (often fatal) disease that I have. But there is a refuah, thank-G-d. And it is not chizzuk - it's learning how to accept and live with the truth. And it is a miracle.

dov wrote on 08 May 2011 21:48:

Impossible! I have made up my mind to like people!




That wasn't in question. What was, is if there is a benefit to these practical steps? E.G. Reducing one's stress level, etc. Or, since it's hopeless regardless, without Hashem's help, so we might as well focus on the real practical steps, the spiritual ones, and leave these other practical steps alone. At no point was the need for a spiritual solution questioned, but rather if there is any benefit in taking practical steps as well. I hope this makes the question clearer and clears up any misunderstanding.




Sure!




I'm on the path, taking a step forward and what feels to be two steps back. I question my willingness at times and what I really want. I have times where I want sobriety, recovery, living with G-d, living in general... And then there are times where I just isolate and act out, knowing the consequences. It's so hard to know (at least for myself), what is the real me [this short sentence contains entire reams of essays - for me it's like saying "Hashem gave the Torah on Har Sinai" - it leaves out the 'kolos ubrokim', the 'aseras hadibros', the world standing still, the yidden dying and coming back to life, receiving two crowns and eternal life, Torah, "seeing" G-d, etc., etc], so I've given up trying. I've decided that I want to stop acting out and that I 'll keep coming back 'till that happens. Trying to be honest and to take it one step at a time... (And yes, I've just acted out, yet again...)

I remain,

Oh.

Of course the practical stuff helps. But it does not just help with avoiding acting out, the main thing it helps with is creating the surrender that I need. Like I've discovered that turning my head when I notice something I want to look at is not really a good idea. It doesn't really work for me. It is not enough. my eyes still follow it until my head turns all the way and I believe in no silly "3 second rule". One second of intentionally trying to see her better (that's lust) has the predictable effect of changing the way my brain thinks. I feel it sometimes, so I know it happens. What I need to do is close my eyes!

It works better cuz it's like giving the thing up right away. That made the big difference for me with fantasies and ogling that I'd get caught up in and would bounce around in my head for a while - till I started taking the actions of surrender and calling someone up over it, or looked away and talked to Hashem about it and really gave up my right to have it and escaped....it took me too long and even if I escaped - I never felt freedom.

The thing I finally needed to do, that made the big difference for me and made the entire thing easier was: to give it up right away. Surrender immediately and let it go. Closing my eyes was an act of surrender. I became able be"H to let it go rather than fight it, and to make a call, especially when I did not want to. And the freedome began to grow and it is still growing. I have good days and bad days, good moments and bad moments. Not perfection, but progress, with Hashems help (mostly through His people - people of all kinds).

dov wrote on 09 May 2011 19:50:


Do you mind explaining this a little more step by step? You mention surrender alot in this post and I don't follow what your saying. Could you please break it down for me?

• What is surrender (what type of thoughts, mindset, are going through your mind when you surrender)?


• How does doing practical steps (reducing the stress level by managing projects to reduce concurrent deadlines) fit with surrender?

I guess its like nasseh v'nishma, I can accept to do it. I still need to know what it is, to do it.

Have a great Shabbos,

Can you beat it?

Apparently not. Or you would have before...still 'struggling'.

So if you cannot beat it and yet here you are, shoved into the ring again with Muhammad Ali (in his prime), there is something wrong.

Just to say, "fight with all youv'e got!" is stupid here. Sure, it makes sense when one is at the beach and a shark happens upon them. Kick and scream and thrash like mad, baby! This is the fight of (and for) your life! How often is the shark scenario going to happen? Every time you are at the beach? Perhaps the only problem is the beach you are choosing, buddy!

But here, the problem is not just the shiksas around and the porn available, nor is it the fact that we (b"H) have a penis attached to our bodies. Would any of these factors be controlled or eliminated as an issue, we would still mess up in another way. We are stuck with ourselves. Finger pointing is uneccesary and whining is useless. So 'switching beaches' is not the answer for us types. For others, it may be, but it doesn't work for us. This needs to be clear, one way or another, before we can move on.

Here, the problem is repetitive, cyclical, and chronic. It seems to be progressive, in most cases, as well. So what to do? Chase it away by thrashing about and screaming words of teshuvah or allegiance to Hashem? Fine. But it will come back tomorrow even stronger if we fight it on our own. Or maybe in an hour. But one thing is for sure - it is not going away because we wish it to do so for our convenience....what to do?

I am talking about surrender. What would you do in that ring with Ali? Really, seriously, what? You tried beating him fifty times, worked out and really learned the mussar and worked out some more and fasted and worked out some more...and got the stuffing beaten out of you anyhow. What will you do the next time you are in the ring with Ali?

The answer AA taught me is simple: Get out of the ring.

Give up the fight. It's too big for you. Not too big for many other people, for some reason...but too big for you, and me. And that may never change.

That's surrender.

Now. You want me to teach you how to do that? I can't. The way I am learning how to do that is by taking the steps necessary and doing a bit of na'aseh v'nishma and hanging around other addicts succesfully sober and copying them. Trying on their stuff like a shirt and seeing how it fits me. What I find works, I keep. And I do not look for happiness nor for my convenience or comfort - I look for what keeps me sober, period.

I have no other suggestion.

You talk about the deadlines and the pressure of work and stuff. What is this obsession about? Is real life paralyzing you? Do you really see the pressures of your work as the main factor in your difficulties? If so, feel free to explain.

But I warn you that if you are still masturbating, seeing hookers, or whatever else you do to act out your lust, the sheer amount of energy you are expending trying to fight this and trying to hide it, as well, is draining you like you would not believe (till you start to get free of it - then you know what I am talking of).

Let me know.

oh Dov- your a breath of fresh air.

You actually read all that?

Then you are the breath of fresh air!!

Good Sh"K!

Yes. When i get dizzy from some other posts, i read you megilas to spin me the other way. 

Good Shabbos Kodesh.

Dov, I want you to know that your insights, similar to those above, helped me tremendously when I first came to this site 2 years ago.

Leo, I think I'm relating to your questions and will share a few practical insights.  When I started in recovery, two areas were difficult: one practical, and one a little more to do with the philosophy of the steps.  Practically, I had difficulty letting go of lust.  Lust was my happiness, my drug, a big part of my psyche, Me.  So I included in my tefilla which I said (and still say) whenever lust attacked: "I don't want to lust."  This was difficult to internalize, because I did want to lust, but I didn't want to lust.  The new me didn't want to lust.  By saying it, along with the rest of my little tefilla, it eventually happened.

The second area was turning the battle over to Hashem.  This didn't really make sense, but I said, "I am powerless over lust and my life has become unmanageable.  I turn my life and my lust over to your care and ask You to please heal me from this illness of lust."  Sometimes I would call out "Tateh, he's picking on me again, get him off of me."  By just saying these things, eventually I internalized them.

It also sounds like you could use some healthy outlets in your life.  Are you exercising regularly?  Are you learning?  These may not help with recovery, but will help with the stress and isolation.

dov wrote on 13 May 2011 15:24:


Ah, R' Dov... Thanks for your reply. I have read it a few times and thought about as well. I have a lot to write and not finding it so easy to do so. I will try to respond (in later posts) and ask some further questions when it flows.

alexeliezer wrote on 13 May 2011 18:03:

They've helped me as well, which is why I asked for his input.



As I've posted elsewhere, I struggle greatly with this.



If it worked for you, it might work for me as well. 




No, to the regular exercise. Yes, to the much more regular learning.