Its been 2 years since I was last here. Much has changed since then. Perspective. Belief.
But then again, much hasn't changed. I am still an addict, and thankfully, my life has still not been ruined. I am interested in making yet another effort to overcome my weaknesses. Its interesting how much goes on in 2 years. I occasionally think, what if I had been able to rid myself of my problems back then? Where would I be today? Its nice, but yet extremely depressing to see how so many of the others who had visited this site in 08 have been able to succeed. I am jealous, but I think that's a good thing.

I have come to the realization that there will be several huge obstacles, at least for the time being, to my journey:
1) I cannot have a filter on my computer. My work requires access to many sites. I have dedicated my life towards my work and cannot simply change that.
2) I watch movies, visit FB, go to many mixed events and frankly do not see myself changing any of that pretty soon.
3) It is impossible for me to avoid "triggers" - I would have to live the life of a hermit.

That being said, I feel that the fact that I even visited this site again shows that there is yet some hope for me.

Oh well, Day 1, take 1753, here we go again...

4) you already paid for his month's subscriptions, so it would simply be a waste of money to start anything untill the first of the month
5) Really pretty, and scantly dressed girls are too much to be held accountable for
6) Mondays and Thursdays are 'half-guilt specials'
7) Deleting all the saved files on your computer would require de-fragmenting 90% of your hard drive, and you are simply too busy
8) you reserve the right to enjoy spring break like a college student
9) WHile driving you must look into every passing car, for safety purposes

Sorry for making fun, but there are amillion things you CANNOT do. and there are a few that you CAN. So reply to this post with a list of 4 little puny baby-steps that you CAN "work -on". Slip-ups are expected, and anticipated, the point is to keep trying, and make those slip-ups farther spaced.

I said 4 things, so that we can help you choose the easiest of the 4, and most practical for your situation.

In the meantime, while you consider how recovery might take some work, self-reflection, and much time...    do only 1 thing ACCOUNTABILITY. Start keeping a FULL account of your current state of addiction, to at least realize what you do, so that some day all those things you keep track of will miraculously vanish. (laugh now, but wait till you start, and I will look like somewhat less of a quack

wwnbf -
welcome back

ai ai ai ai wwb.... you feel like a brother to me.... cause what i understand from your message is, that you really wanna stop doing what you doing its just freaking hard so you are forced to  stay where u are....
its my problem too brother.....
i just hope we really find a solution the fast as possible.... amen

"  2) I watch movies, visit FB, go to many mixed events and frankly do not see myself changing any of that pretty soon.
3) It is impossible for me to avoid "triggers" - I would have to live the life of a hermit. "

Looking at women for us is like taking (just one little) drink for an alcoholic.

Thank you all for taking the time to reply,

I have heard about the comparison to alcoholics many times, but it really is not the same at all. Alcohol is alcohol is alcohol, and even a tiny taste of alcohol is bad for an alcoholic. My addiction is not women – its porn. To be comparable it would be like me viewing only a few minutes of porn, or only beginning to masturbate.

I would be indebted if you can show me a source that says talking/spending time with women is prohibited any more than any nonproductive conversation that one has with his friend.

See SA Even HaEzer Siman 21, especially se'if 1&6 at length. The Siman title is actually: "Keeping a Distance from Arayos". which loosely translated and elucidated means any woman who is not your wife (after the commencment of menstruation)!

Also, have you ever heard of the Mishnah in Pirkei Avos: "Al Tarbeh Sichah Im HaIsha -b'ishto amru etc."?
It doesn't say that about shmoozing with your male friends...

E

Here goes Dov being an idiot again.

Every case is different. Everybody needs a different derech, even though the destination may be the same for all of them. The shower can be made more comfortable by cranking up the hot water or by cranking up the cold water - it all depends on what was turned up till now.

Ok, so "What the heck is this guy varfing (not barfing, mind you) about?!"

Here is a shocker:

If you are really an addict, being frummer is quite probably not your answer. Staying farther away from women is most-likely more part of your problem than part of your solution.

They are not the enemy. Your lust is. Our lust is. The only enemy.

In terms of living free of the obsession with my lust, find it much more effective to say "Hello," with a normal smile to the cashier that I get, whether it turns out to be a woman or a man. Of course, I choose the male cashier whenever I notice that there is a female at the register closer to me...but I often do not even bother checking.

The more I worry about it the sicker I become.  The more i place myself as 'the bulwark against all lust', the sicker I get. The lust is not my problem - I've got it - that's just a fact. What I need is to get busy with reality rather than fantasy and to let go of my tendency to become preoccupied and obsessed with the fantasy garbage.

So I would rather learn the names of the women I work with than pathetically fight with ignoring them (and lose, of course - cuz they are defacto all I am thinking about!). I would rather not go crazy trying to avoid accidentally bumping into their hands at the supermarket register and blame it on G-d and human error...the other way is just turning them into an immensely  powerful goddess of electrical touch. "If I c"v touch her skin I will desire her!!" Sorry - that is not the way it works.

And if that is the way it works for normal people.....it better NOT work that way for sexaholics like me. I had better start getting used to admitting that the women at the store and at my work and the waitress at the restaurant are ALL REAL PEOPLE. Frail, imperfect, sometimes wonderful real people. The deification of females is a huge part of many guys problems. First we make them into objects for sex and entertainment by looking at schmutz using our eyes and hands....soon we make them gods - we give them our power.

Rav Sholom Schvadron zt"L would say avodah zarah is first eitz vo'even, then it's kesef, finally it becomes zohov to us. Same idea. The admission that any guy who sweats and has shaky hands and heart beating away with a dry mouth while searching and finally looking at his precious porn is really making a higher power out of these images and out of women in general - is essential, to me.

And that will not change until we take certain steps, not by just thinking about it.

You may need to keep extra gedarim - I do not know - and sometimes I do, too. But we need to be honest with ourselves and not fool ourselves. Is our fastidiousness really focusing us on the bondage to lust, or is it making it easier for us to be truly free, with hashem and His people, and alive?

Ask a posek if you have any doubts - but then follow it without turning it into an end in itself and a religion of it's own.

Idiotic?

wwnbf!
liscen i dont understand english good enough (u cann see it by the way i spell...) so if i understood you well, i think that before you try to aproach your porn problem, if you have a raabi you should  or: 1) change him for a fanatical extreem one
2) or maybe if he is a frum rabbi (you sound horrible you sound as a apikoires רח"ל) you should ask him per example : is it ok if every boddy speaks divrei chulin in shabbes i should also be bad and watch at porn? (its like to compare talking in the middle of chazoras hashatz to chilul shabes...)

and you should also ask him how did the jewish world aproach the woman....  even 3000 year ago....(like mechabdo yoter migufo, something that even today the goyim dont do.... the gemara also says that you should always ask on מילי דעלמא the opinion of your wife.... you talk to your rabbi my friend)

you should ask him pshat in one of the ani mamimns :וזאת התורה לא תהא מוחלפת

you should know wwnbf that you spoke like a true apikoires, but i dont blame you cause could be you a from a forsaken little town in usa with no enough יהדות
or you are a bt
or i didnt understand your message.
any way you have a much bigger problem then porn  you gotta believe in our bible completly 100 %....

WeWillNotBeForsaken wrote on 06 Apr 2011 21:57:


Welcome back!

If you read the halachos here: www.mechon-mamre.org/i/5121.htm you'll see the issur of being "meikal rosh" with women, of "looking at her beauty" (even the little finger), of being "Marbe sicha", and even of "walking behind a woman"...

Let me explain the distinction: A doctor who needs to check a women's private areas is allowed to if he knows he is not going to be triggered and he is doing it only for his job. But if we look "derech z'nus" (i.e. with intention of enjoying) then even the little finger is ASSUR. As a matter of fact, chazal say that the little finger is just as bad as the private areas - if one looks to derive pleasure. The bottom line is, anything that we know can trigger us - and any looking to enjoy is assur according to halacha.

No one said this is easy, but we need to avoid mixed crowds and movies as much as we can.

For lust addicts it is poison, even regardless of halacha.

You say your issue is only with porn. But when do you turn to the porn? After hanging out with girls and getting aroused... No?

See also this FAQ for some clarity on the issue: www.guardureyes.com/GUE/FAQ/FAQ44.asp

Dear WWNBFS,

I wonder if you read what I posted above. In addition, I wonder if anyone may misunderstand me and see it as some kind of heter to have even more toxic contact with women than onemay already be having.

If that is where you think I am going, please let me know, for that is not at all what my post means. I am just trying to say that the handshaking discussions and halachik issues being brought up seem like wise gedarim but in reality can just be ways to obsess more deeply about the devastating power we vest into women and their bodies.

It is a big mistake, especially for (real) addicts.  Sure, we need tzniyus even more than other yidden do - but it needs to be done with seichel and pashtus. Not with teefeh cheshboinos or an attitude that will make us feel like we are keeping the halocha better than anyone else. After all, we are not doing it because of the halocha - that is clear. For if we had been so concerned with halocha, we'd have stopped looking at porn or masturbating years ago.

We are motivated to do it only because we are ill people. More ill in this respect than a lot of other people, even a lot of goyim are. And we do not expect keeping the gedarim we keep will make us holy in any way. That would be a trick of our 'YH' to rip the gedarim out of the reason they motivate us - then we'd fail completely..and I have seen many fail because of exactly this reason. They started to become successful at being 'mugdar' (chaste) in their eyes, and it seemed to them that they were no longer sick, but suddenly that they were even better than others! - "Hey, they go to movies, and I don't!" But for me, boruch Hashem, the ikkar is to remember that I do not got because I can't!

This is obvious, no? It is a huge ikkar for me. Boruch Hashem yom, yom.

Some of those animated films can be pretty intense, I don't know if you saw Cinderella.

(Shocked I made it that far in your post?)

So then what are you trying to stop doing?

--Eye.

I think I had a previous post that has been removed. I learned that it was against the posting rules of this forum. I apologize if I offended anyone, and also just letting you know that my thoughts might not flow as smoothly (not they were coherent to being with...)

Just to clarify:
1) I am desperately trying to avoid looking at porn - I believe it is 100% assur and it is an addiction that controls my life. It is why I am here. I just do not believe spending time with women and porn are at the same level.
2) Dov - I read your posts - I always try to avoid extending someone's thoughts more than that person himself. I apologize if you think that is what I was doing.
3) Obviously what works for one person might not work for another, as each person's life experiences have molded them differently.

Here is another thought:
Whenever I spend time and talk with women I find that in the long run my lust for porn or masturbation actually diminishes. Why would I need to look at porn when I have a female friend that I can just spend time with? I wonder if anyone else has ever felt this way?
Perhaps there are boundaries that I will just not cross (i.e. while I have dreamed of sleeping with woman, I have never realistically ever felt the urge to do so, as this is something that in my mind is so wrong, and something that I never had a realistic yetzer hara for) and so for me anything that takes me away from porn and masturbation can only be considered going up.
I believe that it is the sexual repression that is so prevalent in Orthodox Jewish communities that have caused some of our problems in the first place - it was always so "assur" for me to look at any women that the urge just built up inside of me.

"אבל לא יסתכל דרך זנות”

Guard, as you mentioned, clearly the issur is only if I'm looking at a woman and thinking "oh my, she's beautiful, I want to sleep with her." However, as I have learned, when normal men (although granted I am not in the category of normal) talk to women, believe it or not, this is not what they are actually thinking. And in fact, this is not what I think either - rather I occasionally think "How nice is this that I am talking to a woman like a real person instead of masturbating to a slut on a screen."