BS"D


Dear Friends,

I know that it probably sounds very simplistic. The Torah Approach should work for most of us, given the fact that we are all frum. So, I didn't look through the whole forum (by lack of time: family, full time kollel 9 AM till 11PM aboutish). I found out by myself that the Torah-approach can be very successful. Think about that Oinshin which wait a person which acts out. Think about the schar and dveikus one will reach for resisting the temptation.
They biggest danger for this is: Hesech Hadaas. I want to think here why we have hesech Hadaas.
Any ideas?

Levi613

Our Y"H couldn't suntion if we didn't.

The addiction to arayos is 'anaya zach'.  see R tzaddok here where he learns it into a zohar. click her for sefer shemos, and just download the entire file, it's much faster to flip through it that way.  And here is the shtikel I read from him, where he pretty much summs up "addiction". (in english)[/b]](in english)

the simplest answer in the books  סוטה ג.) אין אדם עובר עבירה אא״כנכנס בו רוח שטות) .It doesn't say "Adam chototei kishenichnas no..." or "Leolam yizaheir adam meruach shtuss...."
                                  We simply cannot do something so stupid, unless we lose a bit of our sanity.

Chazal call the Y"H 'melech zakein uksil'. He "rules over us", because he always has (zakein). This is simply the way things are, and we accept it as such. He honestly does not deserve to rule, since we make fools of ourself following his instructions.

I think we have hesech hadaas because we are addicts.  As soon as we have a moment to ourselves, we like to think of things we're not supposed to.

I think it's only a very few gifted people that can stay focused PURELY on torah without any stray thoughts all day long.  (They can probably do it because they're madly in love with Torah--not with p***).

The average person?  I think the average person is lucky to get through fifteen minutes without going off and shmoozing with someone about something.

But, suddenly, because we're battling lust, we'll be able to focus on Torah non-stop all day long?

I don't think that sounds realistic.

And, Derech Eretz Kodma L'Torah.

Perhaps we haven't MADE IT to the Torah approach yet.  We're still working on derech eretz, being normal human beings.

Also, would you use a microwave oven or, since we are all b'nei torah, we should cook with the "torah approach."  Let's all look through the Talmud--we'll all be cooking by wood-powered clay stoves.

Or, try to improve your vision the "Torah way."  Since we're all B'nei Torah let's forget about wearing glasses!

Just as useful secular discoveries have been made technologically, useful discoveries have been made in all areas--even psychologically.

A lot of people on this site have been cured through a 12-step program.

I think Rabbi Twersky has written a whole book that explains who the 12-steps match Torah ideas.  (Self-improvement?  I'm Jewish!  or something like that).

Actually, read the AA "Big Book" yourself.  Lots of it actually sounds like Mesilas Yesharim or Orchos Tzaddikim, etc.

Furthermore, if it works, it works!  Doesn't the torah ALSO say, "if they say the non-jews have found wisdom, you can believe it!"

I'm sure you've heard lots of mussar and read through the halachos of the severity of zerah l'vatala dozens (or hundreds) of times in your exposure to Torah.

Why haven't you stopped yet?

Obviously, you need something MORE.

...I just thought of one more point...

Have you ever tried to extract a single halacha l'mai'sah on your own from Torah sources?  Would you rely on your conclusion?

Yet, when it comes to mussar and battling the yeitzer, suddenly because we know a couple of scattered quotes, we assume we can be completely self-reliant.  We can just discard anything else anyone else has to say.

I'm not trying to knock "a pure Torah approach."

I just think we shouldn't have too narrow of a definition of what "a pure Torah approach" entails.  It could be we, in our addiction, are merely deceiving ourselves further.

OK I am surprised that no moderator has taken this down yet......wrong thread for these posts

I will not start a debate, or dialog, monolog or discussion about this....I'll just crack a few jokes  ;D

1. Nobody cooks in a microwave, it totaly destroys the texture of the food. At most, we use it to rewarm food. (except popcorn). Bearing this in mind, you new-age of science is acualy in the yerushalmi. The sugya deals with sooking without heat, in adition to cooking with geo-thermal heat (although I think we also have a makor for that in bavli).

    Additionaly, since you are so intent on halacha lemaAseh...there SH"UT sefarim discuss it. See igros moshe who learns it has a din of bishul on shabbos, since any "normal" means of cooking the dye for the yerious would have been used... and thus microwaves indeed are the normal derech of the melacha. I think he even says that had they had a microwave in those times, they would have used it!

    Then comes all those teshuvot about kashering a microwave, and if it is even possible. R Elyashiv and the Aida HaChareidis will not do it, but many gib poskim do hold it can be kashered with zeiah.

    Now between the sefarim discussing the mechanics of the appliance, and the teshuvot that are 'dan' on how it cooks, and the teshuvot discussing kashering it. WE know:
                    A. How a microwave works
                    B. How to operate the buttons (or knob)
                    C. How long to put our food in
                    D. How to use something more advanced than a kirah or tanur, or kirayim

Now that we have 2 meathods to cook, let us evaluate other appliances discussed in the sefarim. Well the Shu"t Har Tzvi discusses electric filaments. That those electric stoves are only going to be a derabanan if they are not red, and a deoraisa of aish if they are.

Gas stoves and ovens get alot of mention with regard to cookinig on yom tov.
Crock pots,  water urns, a plata's have entire chapters written on their applications with regard to Hatmana, Shehiya, Chazara, Mikareiv Bishul, Magis....

We have refridgerators in the chazon ish, and R Vozner's sefarim on shabbos.

                if all we had where sifrei halacha, we could reconstruct much of todays technology!!!


And as far as quoting random mareh makomos.....it's a problem. You see, people don't normaly seek hadracha from any 'average person'. Some people simply give BAD direction, if not altogether wrong. But to give mareh makomos allows one to learn it for himself, and see if it does indeed apply. (or show it to his LOR and ask the rabbi what to do).


One more point that you raised....about this being a medical issue. If someone is INDEED diagnosed as SA, then he must feulfill Verapoh Yirapeh. And being that it's also a psycological issue, the anonymity and comfort of the addict must be considered. Just remember one thing



So please attempt to keep this in mind, before you phase halacha out of this. We all need a rav, and a poseik, and a doctor. And we will need to seek the assistance of all 3, for this issue.

4 words for you, on a personal level
         
          "Histakel BeOraysa Ubarah Alma"
                1          2          3        4
It is all in there, everything. You just have to know where to look!


If you want to see what I am talking about, listen to a few shiurim from R Yitzchat Zilbershtein (www.kolhashiurim.com), and gain a perspective of how a poseik finds everything somewhere in shas. R moshe paskened a halacha from a pasuk!!! (that 10 rashaim still make a minyan - Although R elyashiv hold yeish lehachmir.. he agrees with the psak) He paskened a halacha based solely on a tosfos, and that wasn't even the topic of discussion! (that adopted sibling might have no issur yichud--Karich Iyun, but can be someich on Bishas hadechak)

The rabanim of hecher doros used to scan all of shas in their minds, before making a psak!!




Reading your post one more time...edited... re-word your post

When someone says, "why do I need all this--why can't I just rely on the Torah approach,"

It sounds to me like a person is saying, "I don't really need to look into this addiction.  I'll just rely on a few mussar ideas I heard over the past few years.  What more is there?  They haven't helped me yet, but if I just TRY HARDER, I'm sure they'll sink in.  I don't really have a problem and I don't really need help."

Mashalim and Marei Mekomos aside, my intent was just to give a word of caution--When a person is turning to "only a Torah approach" are they doing this to avoid the issue or to face it?  "All I need to do is X because that's what the Rambam says, and then I'll be cured."

I don't think that's realistic.

I'm open to hear about a complete recovery system based entirely on Torah sources.

But, to me, that doesn't sound like it was the main point here.

There was no question, "what is the Torah approach?"

It was more of a statement, "I already know what the Torah approach is--2 or 3 mussar ideas--and I intend to succeed solely on this."

That's not enough.

I shouldn't have to post this link here, but I think it would be helpful anyways:

rehab-my-site.com/guardureyes/forum/index.php?topic=602.msg7739#msg7739

It's Battleworn's big post "The Torah Approach."