This may be famous...but I was inspired.

Rav Dessler (Chelek 1, page 42)brings a Gemara which tells of a man hiding in the walls of the house of a woman with whom he was having an affair. The husband came home and was about to drink water that this man knew was poisoned. At the point, the man jumped out and recused the husband.

Abayei says: It is certain that the man did not commit adultery with this woman; otherwise, he would have wanted the husband dead.

The Gemora asks: Isn't this obvious?

The Gemora answers: I might have thought that he preferred the husband alive in order to enjoy the woman as mayim genuvim; km"l not so.

Tosafos asks: Maybe that is the case?
Tosafos answers: An adulterer is unaware of the concept of mayim genuvim yumtaku.

Explains Rav Dessler: The vast majority of lust is the desire to have that which is not ours. We tell ourselves, "If only I had it, I would be happy." Once we do have it, it is now under our belt and part of us and therefore not special anymore. If we truly understood this, we would not run after lust. By definition, one who runs after a married woman believes that if she were muteres to him, it would be truly heaven on earth.

As I sit outdoors (with my back and screen to the street) enjoying Day 45 (bli ayin Hara), I am in the process of internalizing that much of my life has been about achieving that which I don't have and then being bored once I acquire it. Whether in relatively innocent form - a better job, a promotion, a better car, a new position in the community - or in its more sinister form - the next image or story, the next lady-in-waiting (thank you Dov for that wake-up observation), or the next mb session - I have tended to always feel a lack for what is not yet a part of me.

I am working on realizing that true Chayim means recognizing and appreciating that I can give to the world that is external to me - give my all to the wife and children I have, to the job I have, to the friends I have; rejoice in their simchas and in the fact that they are building their own batim ne'emanim b'yisrael - and know that I am not missing anything; on the contrary, I am now able to coexist with HKBH and the world around me.

very nice and thank you

by the way, you can join our group of 40's

myself, pidaini and others

while tosfos and rabbi dessler's vort, im sure is accurate, my feelings are different

firstly, us on gye believe that lust is not associated with what we don't have, unless you consider our wives as something else and assur

we, in recovery mode, cannot lust after our wives at all

secondly, I have several particular desires that I covet
they have been acquired by me
I am not bored of them at all
they are still there, and if I stop my 'streak of life,' I will go right back to them

just sayin'

cordnoy wrote:

Yes, but many of us want to try different things in different ways with our "muttar" wives. So, it is still running after that which we do not have. The same goes for searching for different images, more exotic images, etc etc.

Once we "have" something, we look for something "more". That is probably what it means that this is a progressive disease. We need more stimulation to acheive the same result. and then more, and then more...

cordnoy wrote:


I have a funny feeling that the "allergy of the body" attaches itself to different "obsessions of the mind" in each one of us.

In my case, I have found that when high on lust, the only one I can not muster desire for is my wife, while I can go crazy over women, real and pixelated, who are objectively far less attractive than she. There seems to me to be an element of ego-satisfaction in my quests. To wit - I will often pass up a site I know I can get at for the chance to bypass my filter with a new one...

It may be that your lust is not ego-related - or that your particular ego-fulfillment finds its place in taking possession of what you have.

Just thinkin'

im sorry
gibbor and positivity

im kinda getting lost in this one

I had 2 points

1. lust does not mean going after something you don't have, for one can lust after his own wife

2. who says that one gets bored of desires? he might, but not necessarily, especially in these types of things? are we bored after we acquire that which we lusted after? im not; sometimes, id do it again.

Thank you for sharing. Do you know where the gemara is?

The gemara is in nedarim 91b

The more i think about it the more I realize how true it is.Without getting into detail, there are times that people prefer to work for their p*** when they can just as easily go elsewhere and get it without effort. This is why I can look at p*** but still want to see the woman in the advertisement who isn't nearly as pretty, because I don't "have her" yet.


Cordnoy, to point one, all Rav Dessler said is that the vast majority of lust is the desire to have something you don't not that that is what lust is.I'm sure lusting after ones wife isn't nearly as exciting as lusting after anything else.It's probably just done because a)it's right there so it can attract ones attention b)one can be moireh heter and say it's my wife so I can do it.

To point two, I think you answered the question yourself "sometimes, id do it again." sometimes.It's possible to do it again but it ain't the same as searching for something else.Call me spoiled but after seeing something once it just doesn't excite me as much anymore.

As far as lusting after that which we don't have. I think he is describing the "new toy" phenomenon. Your kid begs and begs for a "new toy". Finally, you give in and buy it. Two weeks later, it is sitting in some corner collecting dust. What happened? It was the greatest toy in the world for weeks and weeks... until you bought it. Then it lost it's luster after a short time. The lust to have it is much stronger than the actual pleasure of having it.

There is definitely a parallel when looking for porn. We look for more and different stuff. There is the "thrill of the hunt". We'd rather look for more, different, better images. Why does a guy search for more when he has oodles stored on his hard drive or have tons of magazines?

When I eat, I am satisfied. But, I get hungry again, and eat again. I don't ever get "bored" of eating. I think you are asking the same about sex with your wife. It's like eating, not like getting a new toy. Although, the same can be said of sex with ones wife. A peson can want more and different things, especially lust addicts like us.

I have to think about it more.

I think it's even more than the "new toy" phenomenon.

but, I have to think about it more too.

i guess the basic question at hand is what is the difference between the "new toy" and "steak"?

perhaps, a person needs food to live. There is a biological need that is being filled by eating.

A new toy, is just that, a toy. There is no real "need" for it. The whole excitement is in "getting" the toy. Once we have it - there is no purpose or need it fills any more.

To add a wrinkle, there are some toys that we do enjoy for long periods of time, even years. Especially those that lend themselves to be used in creative and different ways like blocks or dolls or a kitchen center where the imagination is involved.

maybe this all fits in. Things that are "real" needs - "really" fill us. There are other things we want for the sake of "getting" them. Their usefullness is short lived.

In the realm of food there is also eating out of boredom or other reasons when we don't really "need" to eat.

In any event there is definitely a phenomenon of wanting something for the sake of getting it, and then becoming bored with it once we have it, where the whole excitement was that of "getting" it not of "having" it.

This was a bit of a ramble and not so clear, but at least maybe it is "food" for thought, so I'll put it out there anyway .

Maybe it's a good Shabbos table discussion. Just don't tell them where you saw it .

I wrote this last night, I think it still makes sense especially the disclaimer.Gibbor wrote part of but I don't have time to edit this so without further ado,,,,,

I think a new steak is not the same as a new toy, for a few reasons,

1) when you get that steak it's because you're hungry as opposed to a toy that you get without a physical motivation.

2)the steak is a one time thing so having six steaks is like the first day or two with the toy which one plays with six times during those two days.

and after six steaks you will get bored of it.So I don't think that there really is an intrinsic difference between the two.

Lust however is a different story.I think what Rav Dessler is saying is that unlike other desires where the concept of mayim genuvin yimtaku exists as an extra, in lust it is the cause of most of the lust not just an extra "spice".

So I'm thinking that the difference between the "new toy feeling" and the mayim genuvim of lust is like this.The new toy feeling comes primary from the wanting what you don't have.Mayim genuvim is a feeling of sweetness of getting something you can't have.

So yes there is the new toy factor in lust as well and that can be a reason to try something new and to search for new things.But that's all after the desire is there.
The desire comes from mayim genuvim, and that's not just when you can't because it's wrong or it's someone else's wife but because it's a precious thing to begin with.It belongs to the person and when they consent then they are giving you a precious thing that belongs to them.So even in a normal case of consent it's the mayim genuvim that starts off that strong desire to"get" her. And of course when it is assur or belongs to someone else it's even sweeter.

Now another thing is that when it' harder to get it's even sweeter, which is why without getting into details, sometimes people prefer to "work" for their p*** when they can just as easily get it elsewhere without any work.

I also think that there's one other part to this which is nogeia to us as yiddin.The torah tells us that sex is a holy thing and should be kept for the right times and situations.Seems to me that the more we value it,, the more precious it actually is to us.And that's why my final point is that this is the reason why modestly dressed people can inspire more lust, since it's obviously precious to them.But more importantly this is a big reason not to abuse it, because the more precious we treat it, the more precious it is.

So in summary, what I said earlier that that's why we get bored of the same video is wrong.We get bored of it because of the new toy feeling, because now we're bored of it so let's get a new and interesting video.
But the start of the desire comes from something we can't have because it's someone else's precious thing, and that's why the harder it is to get, the more precious it is to them (which means the more precious it is) the more we want it.

DISCLAIMER:Rabbi Akiva Tatz once said that when you hear the truth then you just feel it in you, so even though I have no proof to a large part of what I said that's the way I'm feeling now, and I feel like this was what I felt the first time I saw the post and it just rang true.
HOWEVER,I'm writing this while I'm sleep deprived and before I thought this through so it really may belong in the kabbalah thread...

IMHO, the reason modestly dressed people can be bigger triggers for us is because they are more shayich to us. Meaning, what do we have in commin with the shiksa in the film? Not much. We don't share common values at all. Our only attraction is physical. Otherwise, we are kind of repulsed by her.

OTOH, the frum Bais Yaakov girl is the one that we can really fantasize about having a relationship with. We are in fact not only attracted to the external. The fact that we have something in common attracts us. I heard a Rav say something to this effect in a shiur on yichud. It's somtimes davka the frum ones that are more of a problem for us.

Dr Sorotzkin has another interesting angle on this (boy, I've gone a while without quoting him) See here www.drsorotzkin.com/pdf/PSYCHOLOGICAL-FACTORS.pdf . The entire article is great and if you haven't read it yet, you should.

If you want to see what I'm talking about, skip to the heading "pornography" on page 4. He talks about our need for an intimate experience. The more frum the person, the more intimate we perceive the experience to be. The same act has different meaning if it's a goy or a frum Jew.

thanks for the tip there

I see my therapist has the same attitude

his angle with me also has to do with my childhood

It can have to do with both, and I do think that both are true.
SO one the one hand no one was maskim to what i said, on the other hand no one was moicheh so i suppose shtika k'hodahh.

Speak now or forever hold your peace.