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Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim???

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TOPIC: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 7575 Views

Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 24 Aug 2010 09:33 #77068

buzi
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Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 23 Aug 2010 16:24:

And the Rav added in his humility, "Halevay, that our shul should have such an erliche Baal Tefila." (The Rav is the Baal Tefilla in his Shul.)

All right, all right!! This is beginning to get to my head. Soon I will have to open a new thread to help me get over my gaavo!!

Seriously, thank you very much Yosef Hatzadik and everyone else. You have really taken a weight off my back. Besides, this discussion has really put things in perspective. As hard as it is for me to accept, I realize that I really am not such a bad guy.

This morning during daavening I was much more aware that despite everything HaShem is listening to me.

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Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 24 Aug 2010 15:11 #77083

Yosef Hatzadik
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As an added impetus to keep clean on Rosh Hashana itself I will add:

I think that I recall hearing (don't remember where) that on the day that someone is motzi zera lebatala R"L he is in niddui [excommunication] from Hashem. Hashem will not listen to his tefilos until he immersed in a mikva and also had herev shemesh - a sunset passed.

Therefore, personally, I avoided being the shliach tzibbur even for a weekday Maariv when I was in this state, out of fear of the above.

If anyone knows of a source for this please let me know.

A refutation would be even better! You can all imagine the quality of the tefilos when someone thinks that Hashem said to him, "You still have the chiyuv to daven, but I AM NOT LISTENING TO YOU TODAY..." :-[

:-\

Yosef Hatzadik's Ha'oros
Tov veyoshor Hashem al kein yoreh chata'im baderech!

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Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 25 Aug 2010 01:58 #77119

123.trying.123 Current streak: 10 days OFFLINE Platinum Boarder Posts: 636 Karma: 0	חזון איש (מעשה איש ח"ז עמ' פד') – בדרת האחרונים הקב"ה מקשיב לתפילתנו אפילו כשאינם כראוי, ואינו דורש כמו בדורות הקודמים. -From Teshuva B'zmanenu by Dr. Sorotzkin
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Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 25 Aug 2010 11:50 #77135

buzi
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Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 24 Aug 2010 15:11:

You can all imagine the quality of the tefilos when someone thinks that Hashem said to him, "You still have the chiyuv to daven, but I AM NOT LISTENING TO YOU TODAY..." :-[

:-\

Attitude no.26. Getting back up after a fall

The Lechevitcher Rebbe (a student of R' Shlomo of Karlin) once went as far as to say that even if a person just killed someone and the knife is still dripping with blood, and he feels unable to stand up and daven Mincha (the afternoon service) with all his strength and heart, then he has not yet tasted from the waters of Chassidus!

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Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 25 Aug 2010 16:33 #77141

Yosef Hatzadik OFFLINE Platinum Boarder A GYE'er since 2010 Posts: 2986 Karma: 10	I was referring to this specific point, where Hashem tells the person, "You are now in a state of excommunication. I an NOT LISTENING to you today!"
	*Yosef Hatzadik's Ha'oros* *Tov veyoshor Hashem al kein yoreh chata'im baderech!* Last Edit: by .

Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 25 Aug 2010 18:05 #77146

kosher OFFLINE Gold Boarder Posts: 301 Karma: 1	To add a thought. What did all of you (and the general public) think when you heard that the infamous Finkel of the Monsey meat scandal used to daven as the shliach Tzibur on Yomin Noraim? (He also appears to have been an "addict" that "couldn't" change his bad behaviour despite sincerely wanting to.)
	I am not big enough to not do something I WANT to do because I know it is wrong, but I've been around long enough not to want to do many things, even though they are really enticing at the first glance. Last Edit: by .

Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 26 Aug 2010 01:16 #77161

123.trying.123
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kosher wrote on 25 Aug 2010 18:05:

To add a thought.

What did all of you (and the general public) think when you heard that the infamous Finkel of the Monsey meat scandal used to daven as the shliach Tzibur on Yomin Noraim?

(He also appears to have been an "addict" that "couldn't" change his bad behaviour despite sincerely wanting to.)

1. A Chote Imachti Ess Harabim is a different story!!!

2. If he was in the process of Teshuva and joined the Guard Your Kashrus Website and was in the battle to overcome his Aveiros and really did not want to be the way he was.... but fell... We would all see him differently.

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Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 26 Aug 2010 16:34 #77202

yedidyaaleph
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this whole topic prompted me to consider the following general question:
just food for thought.....
Are we considered Chotim or Cholim?? Those with access to Dr. Twersky should run this by him for a professional perspective.
Maybe,we are in the geder of Shotim when acting out due to our disease?
if so where does teshuva fit it?
Perhaps,we did prior aveiros which led to our falling in to this stuss?

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Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 26 Aug 2010 17:44 #77209

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Tried-123 wrote on 26 Aug 2010 01:16:

kosher wrote on 25 Aug 2010 18:05:

2. If he was in the process of Teshuva and joined the Guard Your Kashrus Website and was in the battle to overcome his Aveiros and really did not want to be the way he was.... but fell... We would all see him differently.

I raised this point as food for thought, not becuase I have an opion either way (I don't), so I don't want to get too deeply in to this. But how do you know/assume that he wasn't "in the battle to overcome his Aveiros and really did not want to be the way he was.... but fell..." He claims he was, and considering our experiences, I am inclined to believe him...

I am not big enough to not do something I WANT to do because I know it is wrong, but I've been around long enough not to want to do many things, even though they are really enticing at the first glance.

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Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 29 Aug 2010 20:09 #77313

kosher
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yedidya aleph wrote on 26 Aug 2010 16:34:

this whole topic prompted me to consider the following general question:
just food for thought.....
Are we considered Chotim or Cholim?? Perhaps,we did prior aveiros which led to our falling in to this stuss?

In my (unprofessional) opinion both and neither are the case.

Both are the case in the sense that this is a sin and a sickness. Until we have uprooted the sickness, we need to focus on that and can't deal with the sin. Once the sickness is cured, only then can we focus on and deal with the sin (see Shaari Tshuva Ois 11).

The language WE ARE... does not seem right to me. We are healthy, wonderful and good people. We have an element of sin and sickness that we need to uproot, but this is not who WE ARE, rather an aspect that we need to deal with.

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Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 29 Aug 2010 21:24 #77319

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I would suggest calling Rav Aharon Feldman Shilta. He is very aware of the the struggles we have and the site. He is a talmid chacahm, and one of the leaders of American Jewry. He can give you an honest answer based on Halacha. I would suggest not saying your name and just explaining your involvement with the site. His phone numbers can be found on his haskama www.guardyoureyes.org/?p=2118.

Hatzlacha.

Although many people here have very good thoughts I think the responsible thing to do is to ask an adom gadol.

זכרני נא, זכרני נא, וחזקני נא אך הפעם הזה, הפעם הזה, האלקים, ואנקמה נקם אחת משתי עיני, מפלשתים

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Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 30 Aug 2010 15:35 #77362

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Thanks for the great idea! I just called with Harav Feldman Shlita.

The Rosh Yeshiva replied that if he is still in his addiction he shouldn't daven. If the tzibbur would know that he is looking they wouldn't want him to be their shliach. The Rosh Yeshiva added that he has a breira not to look. if he stops looking then he will be in the category of a Baal Teshuva who's tefillos Hashem likes!

When I said that he has been davening for years and he would need an excuse why he can't daven this year, the Rosh Yeshiva responded, "Shaarei terutzim lo ninallu, it shouldn't be such a problem to think up an excuse why he can't daven. i.e. He has a problem with his voice and the doctor said he shouldn't daven...

If anyone wants more info about our conversation, feel free to contact me via PM or GoogleVoice.

Yosef Hatzadik's Ha'oros
Tov veyoshor Hashem al kein yoreh chata'im baderech!

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Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 31 Aug 2010 08:44 #77436

buzi
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Thanks Yosef. Very sobering.

Can you please ask the Rosh Yeshiva the following questions:

Is there a difference between being the Chazan for Mussaf or the other Tefilos?
Should an addict abstain from being the Chazzan during the rest of the year?
What about being the Baal Koreh?
Since I admit that as a an addict I have no objectivity, at what point would the Rosh Yeshiva say that one is no longer in his addiction? (after 90 days?)

BTW the reply you received from the other Rav you asked was entirely different.

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 23 Aug 2010 16:24:

Since I wanted to hear the opinion of someone who is not part of the GYE Kehilla. We are biased, after all.

I posed this shayla to the Rav of my shul. He knows all about GYE, I regularly repeat some of the posts to him. He replied with an unequivocal 'yes'! As a source for his answer he quoted a Teshuva from the Tzemech Tzedek of Lubavitch concerning believing the testimony of a Jewish soldier who ate treifus while in the army and being mattur an agunah based on that testimony. He writes that even though that soldier (based on the specific circumstances) was in the category of a meizid, an intentional sinner, it was l'tei'avin not l'hachis. Therefore, while he must do the teshuvah of a meizid, he did not lose his status as a Jew in good-standing and he is believed even in the extremely stringent matter being mattur an Agunah!

Kol shkein, that he is allowed to be a baal tefillah durring the Yamim Nora'im! In fact, he would make a very good choice as a shliach for the tzibbor!

I continued asking the Rav by posing these words of Ovadia:ovadia wrote on 17 Aug 2010 16:13:

Just to make things a but more dramatic, I would like you to answer me the following.
It is the break between Krias hatorah and Tekias Shofar, and your esteemed Baal Mussaf, Reb Ovadia comes over to you and asks to have a word with you.
You step outside with him and (in a tearful voice) he says that he is in a quandary.”How can I be the baal Mussaf when I spent a good part of last night looking at the internet______ ?”

His response was remarkably close to what Ovadia himself answered:

"My opinion remains unchanged. As long as he is doing all that can to try and get out of it, he installed a filter etc. He may be the best representative we have.”

And the Rav added in his humility, "Halevay, that our shul should have such an erliche Baal Tefila." (The Rav is the Baal Tefilla in his Shul.)

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Re: Can an addict be a Chazan for the Yomim Noraim??? 01 Sep 2010 22:07 #77572

yedidyaaleph
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Harav Feldman Shlita.
The Rosh Yeshiva replied that if he is still in his addiction he shouldn't daven. If the tzibbur would know that he is looking they wouldn't want him to be their shliach. The Rosh Yeshiva added that he has a breira not to look. if he stops looking then he will be in the category of a Baal Teshuva who's tefillos Hashem likes!

if i may,please consider the following comments.
This sounds to me like that the minute he is no longer active in the addiction (not looking a p*??) d'heinu he has stopped doing the chet (ozeevos hechet) perhaps with chorotoh????,then he will be in the category of a Baal Teshuva who's tefillos Hashem likes. Sounds like he does not need Kabalah al Ha Bah?? Please clarify this with The Rosh Yeshiva.
btw i was a bit puzzled about the idea that even though the addict is powerless over his addiction,he is still held accountable as a choteh? (noch a kasha for the R.Y.)
This idea reminds me of a Chazan who i once met who happened to have a beautiful voice and was able to inspire others with his davening,he confessed that he was addicted to smoking cigarettes to the degree that he could not hold himself back from regularly smoking Chas V'Shalom on Shabbos. So here is an example of an addict who we would not as our Shaliach Tzibur b/c of his addiction has violated a primary precept of the Torah Hakdosha.

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