Kedusha wrote on 04 Jan 2010 16:14:
If your coming from a system point of view then your wrong. There are lawyers that are willing to pay guys to get their case etc etc. But if your coming from a jewish Areivim point of view then im maskim. Its down right disgusting. But like i said before dont kill a whole system on a few rotten apples.

Rage ATM wrote on 04 Jan 2010 16:11:
Trust me man im sitting in kollel all day and i couldnt agree with you more on this. If this is what you meant you dont even realize the extent of the truth that lies behind these words.

Now i just have to make sure that im one of the "good apples". :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\




Dang! >

Guys, there are lots of valid points being discussed here, but it's not really for GYE... I once locked the "Science vs. Torah" thread for the same reason. People often feel very passionately about the way they see as correct in these kind of discussions, and it can lead to machlokes and other annoying things which don't have much to do with recovery  :-X

So let's try to wrap it up and just agree that everyone's right!  :D

guardureyes wrote on 04 Jan 2010 16:36:
If anyones been reading my posts they would see that this was what i said from the beginning.  :D

imtrying25 wrote on 04 Jan 2010 16:39:


imtrying25 wrote on 04 Jan 2010 16:27:


Great - Shalom al Yisrael!

guardureyes wrote on 04 Jan 2010 16:36:


I'm not trying to prolong the discussion (I think there's a lot of common ground in any event), but I feel that it has more to do with GYE's mission than meets the eye (no pun intended).  A person who thinks that anything less than full time learning is only b'dieved may feel like a Sheigitz if he needs to leave Kollel, as most people eventually do, or if he doesn't learn in Kollel to begin with.  If he feels like a Sheigitz, guess what behavior he is more than likely to engage in?

I do want to say that i dont think this convo ever got personal. I definitly didnt take it that way and i hope others didnt as well. I was just trying to let people understand a little. Im not even sure i did that either. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I think one of the things that makes GYE so great is that heated conversations like these never get personal, the way I often see them get on other sites where users can interact. I also think we should stop hijacking this poor guy's thread, and instead make another one and move all these posts over there.  ;D

The problem is not with the individuals who belong in a kollel lifestyle. It's the system which demands that everybody live that way. The system takes away from both those who belong there, and those who don't.
It causes the concept of "giving one's life for learning"  to be non-existant. Nobody gives their life for learning, they just do what everyone does. There's no decision or thought in it, and it's that descision and thought which on one hand - makes the learning something special and meaningful, but on the other hand - would cause many to leave kollel.
This is the dillema.
Your welcome to find a solution.
I'm sure the Gedolim as well as the rest of Klal Yisroel will be grateful to you for it.

Kollel Guy wrote on 05 Jan 2010 13:02:


It's interesting that most people think that they need to ask a Sheilah before leaving Kollel (I didn't), but very few ask a Sheilah if that's what they should be doing in the first place (I didn't either).

We got no support from family, and received a tiny stipend from the Kollel (which paid about half our rent) only after the first three years.  My wife earned the Parnasa for five and a half years.  She wasn't cut out for such a lifestyle, and it put a huge strain on our marriage.  That's why I didn't ask a Sheilah about leaving Kollel - it only makes sense to ask if, #1 you have any doubt, and #2, you intend to follow what you're told, even if you disagree with it.

Ha - well, #2 is true of asking a sheilah about anything, isn't it? 

Personally, I'd ask before leaving - just like I'd discuss my choice of going to kollel with my rebbe.

KG - I agree, but I know lots of people who are choosing to do it because they want to, and by the same token, if they had to, they'd leave. As kedusha mentioned, people with heads on their shoulders know that if it's not working out, you leave. My sister married a long-term learner, an incredible guy who's really committed - and that's what she wanted. Yet, if things got tough, and my sister was having trouble handling it, he'd go out and work. I'm sure it wouldn't be a split-second decision - they'd discuss it (like any other major lifestyle change). But that's what intelligent people do - they make decisions based on what's the best thing for them to do at that time.

silentbattle wrote on 05 Jan 2010 16:40:


Right, but so is #1.  We only ask when we're in doubt.

True - but sometimes, even when we're sure about something, it's a good idea to ask - especially when it's a major decision like that, and we have so many things pulling us in different directions - "the family needs more money, but I also want luxuries, but what will the neighbors say, and is this really the right thing for me to do?" I could go on for paragraphs with all the different factors that pull at our minds at times like that - some of them valid, some not. And that makes thing very unclear.

I'm not questioning your decision - but the fact that someone's sure about something doesn't always mean he's right.

silentbattle wrote on 05 Jan 2010 16:47:


Does ANYONE ask if they should learn in Kollel to begin with?  Hardly ever - because they "know" the answer.