frank.lee wrote on 05 Dec 2022 00:25:

Wow you are the exact person i am addressing in these posts. Unbelievable. It looks like you had the courage to look deep inside yourself and look the scary truth in the face, and learn how to work with your feelings, to get healthier and happier. Inspiring!!

frank.lee wrote on 05 Dec 2022 00:25:

As I responded to @jackthejew. I made a mistake. By using the word "normal". What I meant by normal, was the word "common", and we dont ask for our feelings or desires so its nothing to be ashamed about.

Hopeful2022 wrote on 05 Dec 2022 12:13:

Very simple in fact. We concentrate on the definitions and the minutiae of words when there is a logical argument taking place, in order to get to the truth. If we are arguing over if something is "normal" or "not normal" it may be helpful for the parties arguing to know, that they are using "normal" in different ways.

It sounded strange to me that you would say such a thing. Especially in such a passionate when you said "They are actually meaningless.". 
But then I understood why the answer to to why you said it.

I opened this argument to get to the truth about an important topic of "alt" desires. The only way to get to the truth, is to bring our logic to the table and debate something based on truth. When debating to get to the truth definitions matter, data matters. Percentages matter. 

You responded with emotions and passions instead of logic. I don't blame you. I am passionate about my beliefs just as strong as you. But unless you want to debate facts, logic, and reason, I have nothing to respond to you. I don't see the point in getting passionate about something I believe is important as this topic. So id love to here your arguments, please share them!! 

​If you'd like me to respond with passion then please notify me and I will post what my feelings are about this topic.

I’m sorry that you took my reply in that manner. My point was to spend more time and effort trying to get to the bottom of the problem rather than just defining it. Being sexually attracted to children (call it anything you like) is more than fodder for an online forum. It is a crisis situation and hopefully you treat it as such.

Hopeful2022 wrote on 09 Dec 2022 10:56:

Im happy to see you continue the conversation! looking forward to responding after shabbos! Good shabbos!

Hopeful2022 wrote on 05 Dec 2022 12:13:

First of all I am attracted to teens. Not "children". Which is less common and more unhealthy.
Secondly, I guess what you are saying, is that ephebophilia which is fairly common, is a problem for you by any definition. Because its not a problem for me thank god. [And I feel sorry for whoever it is a problem for, because its a hard challenge]. At one point in my life it was really really challenging and a problem. (when I was a teenager, and in the dorm with all my triggers).

So i guess its something you have a problem with. I don't have any problem with the desire, save for the fact that the neglect, trauma and abuse that caused it, should be dealt with in order to heal and be a healthy and happier person.

Hopeful2022 wrote on 05 Dec 2022 12:13:

Are you asking if I have spent time getting healthier and happier? Because if you are asking, the answer is yes. I've been to therapy for 3 1/2 years. Plus I'm seeing a physiatrist, even though I don't believe in 3/4 of the world of physiatry.      And what about you? Are you in therapy? (NJZ) feel free to ignore the question.

Hopeful2022 wrote on 05 Dec 2022 12:13:

I'm happy to argue about that. We can agree to disagree here. But, I wonder if your opinion would change if you dug deep and got in touch with all your deepest desires. Because regardless of if its the same desire or a different desire, we human being have strange desires my friend.



I wrote about it, in order for our world to be a kinder, safer, and less judgmental place to be. Were people can get help for their challenges, as apposed to feeling like if they reveal their challenges they will get skinned, burned, and made to walk naked down main street with a sign proclaiming

                       "THIS IS A MAN WHO HAS DESIRES THAT HE NEVER WANTED, DIDNT ASK FOR, AND WANTS TO WORK ON. SHAME ON HIM.

           That is why i wrote it in the "first place". Because i believed that it would be worth getting scream at, shunned and looked down upon to facilitate healing and safety.

Hopeful2022 wrote on 05 Dec 2022 12:13:

I think, "mentally illness-ing" people. Unnormalizing desires, calling desires and feelings dangerous is the most dangerous thing in our community. How many children would have been spared the fear, shame and trauma of molest If people with challenging desires would feel that its safe to share their feelings without being called mentally ill and dangerous? 
How many people would have been spared violence and pain, hurt and shame, if people with challenging desires would feel that its safe to share their feelings without being called mentally ill and dangerous. How many people would not be mentally ill and dangerous, save for the fact that people call them mentally ill and dangerous. 

How many kids wouldn't get bullied, if instead of looking at the behavior of our children, we would instead accept and focus on the feelings causing their behavior, sharing with them that their feelings are ok and normal, but action is not?
How many bullies are feeling unsafe, empty, fear, shame and self hatred inside that will never be dealt with, because instead of looking at the feelings that are causing the unacceptable behavior, we look at behaviors and them label them as "mental illness" instead of telling our bullies that their feelings are normal and then FOCUS ON HELPING THEM REGULATE THIER EMOTIONS AND BE FUNCTIONAL AROUND OTHERS.

How many mothers would be able to be a "good enough mother", if the feelings of guilt, shame and anger sitting inside them, causing them to lash out at their children, would be accepted and embraced, and they wouldn't feel stupid telling all their friends from the 1980s they went to get professional help, instead of labeling them with all kind of titles based off their behavior, which would hinder anyone's desire to turn to help.

When will we realize how stupid, backwards and foolish it is, to look at people based on their desires/symptoms, when we can be accept, embrace and help them heal the feelings causing their desires/symptoms?! Why we focusing on the symptoms? a) When we accept people's feelings and their normalized, that's when people reach out and can get help for challenging feelings! b) besides acceptance, in order to help a person with a challenge, we have to address what's causing the issues. Not his behavior he's doing caused by the issue! That's not what's going to help him heal, whatever is causing his issue will still remain.


Think about a leak in the ceiling that is ruining your dining room floor and rug. There are 2 approaches you can take to make sure your floor and rug don't get ruined. 1) Get buckets and capture the water spilling from the broken pipe, or 2) fix the pipe! Getting buckets wont fix the problem! There will still be a leak.

It means our focus should be on fixing the pipe.  Focusing on giving someone with "strange desires" a mental illness diagnosis, and putting that as the important thing to focus on, while not focusing on accepting feelings and helping the person get healthier, is just like focusing on using a bucket to try to fix a leak. The leak/desires wont get fixed! Focus on the desires and the problem. Not on the behaviors associated with the problem. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't use "buckets" at all. Meaning we cant let people do behaviors that are harming himself our others, but that cant be the focus. That's just silly! Lets fix our leaks, drop the buckets.

There's a reason doctors don't look at someone and say "hay, he's coughing, is red and out of breath" "ok he has lung disease!". First there are tests to see WHERE THE SYMPTOMS ARE COMING FROM. BECAUSE WE GET A DIAGNOSIS BASED ON WHERE THE SYMPTOMS ARE COMING FROM. NOT THE SYPMTOMS THEMSELVES. Symptoms can't be a disease. Symptoms come from somewhere. Symptoms come from diseases. HENCE THE NAME SYMPTOMS.  Strange desires ARE A SYMPTOM OF NEGLECT, ABUSE AND TRAUMA AND MANY OTHER THINGS.

Imagine a doctor giving medication for a medicine, based on the symptoms for lung disease, without seeing or caring about where the symptoms are actually coming from!? What if the symptoms are stemming from a chest infection!?

                                                                             SO WHAT IS MENTAL ILLNESS?

It doesn't mean the same thing as physical illness! When we diagnose a physical illness we are not diagnosing symptoms. We are diagnosing a disease. We are diagnosing were our symptoms come from. When physiatrists diagnose mental illness, they are diagnosing symptoms. When we use the word disease and mental illness, it doesn't mean the same thing as regular "illness" or "disease". In order to diagnose mental illness a physiatrist comes to understand that your group of symptoms meet a certain criteria, to say "this person is suffering" in this or that specific symptoms category. It doesn't mean they took a blood test and found red blood cells that carry a pathogen called "depression" "anxiety" or "oppositional order disorder". Its just a group of symptoms that  we can classify as "This person is suffering" in order to GIVE THE PIATENTE RELIEF OR HELP.

"
That is not a disease. That is just a group of symptoms. If I have symptoms 1, 5, 2, and 8, And you have symptoms 1. 2, 6, and 4, And mine meet the criteria and yours don't then I have a disease and you are "normal"?!?.     That stinks like left wing progressive math to me. How dumb can we be.

Its the most dangerous thing in the world to label peoples desires as "mental illness" and dangerous. It is the most safe thing in the world for people to know that they can reach out and be helped because they aren't mentally ill.

Hopeful2022 wrote on 05 Dec 2022 12:13:

As I stated in the previous post, Bh I'm in therapy and on the sexual desires side of things, I'm emotionally healthy now. (Previously i wasn't) And yes I still have to be more careful then others who don't have this challenge.

According to your logic, every girl and woman out there is a potential rape victim, and you should get help ASAP for your desire for woman.
Desire isn't a crime. Desire doesn't put people at risk. An unhealthy individual puts people at risk.

Hopeful2022 wrote on 05 Dec 2022 12:13:

Refer to previous posts on why this is completely false. Mental illness is not at all comparable to physical illness. It is not "a sickness" it is very different then a "broken arm".     And the biggest lie of all is that mental illness is a disease. Simply not true.