jackthejew wrote on 31 Dec 2022 16:37:

You seem to be saying many things here. I don't understand your response though. Your still making the same mistake. You refer to bdsm. Where as long as there is consent, there's no problem. You can rail against the immorality, but they do they and we do we. The definition of "normalizing pedophilia" remains. It means normalizing the person and his desires, not normalizing childhood sexual abuse.   

I totally don't understand your 1+1 = 2 over here. It seems you are saying,      Thinking of bdsm as totally normal = normalizing sexual abuse of a minor?? By bdsm there is consent. Minors cant have consent.  Where's the parallel?

jackthejew wrote on 31 Dec 2022 16:37:

Absolutely agree, its should absolutely be changed to MAPS, because the world of physiatry and CBT since the 1970s has screwed up the meaning of pedophile so badly, that most people now think the definition of pedophile is, "child sex abuser" or "potential child sex abuser".   Imagine we called those who desire woman as "rapists" or "potential rapists". that's the equivalent.   Its sad that so many people just don't get it. A pedophile is a normal person who just like you can control his desires, and just like a person that rapes someone goes to jail and is judged, so too a pedophile that molests someone goes to jail and is judged. Instead, because of 1970 science, we are still calling pedophiles as "child sex abuser" and making them live terrible, judged lives where they are assumed guilty until proven innocent, even though their desire to act inappropriately on their desires,.......is the same strong as yours.  

Anyone who has courage should befriend pedophiles -aka those attracted to minors- not child sex abusers. It shows courage to show up for someone who the scientific medical physiatry world has ruined and never given a chance at life. You are the same dangerous as a pedophile. You are same innocent until proven guilty. You are the same human being that has desires he cant act on as a pedophile. Pedophiles don't abuse children. Abusers do.  Do you know that most molestation happens by those that aren't pedophiles? Did you know that?

Human being wrote on 02 Jan 2023 02:49:

The point being that if you look at the rest of what these people are pushing for, you can see that their intended "normalization" goes PRETTY far.
The rest of this post has been pretty endlessly hashed out over and over on this thread.

Human being wrote on 02 Jan 2023 02:36:

I don't subscribe to the idea that there's nothing wrong with BDSM, my point however is that we do see many of the same people who pushed for the normalization of extreme BDSM involved in the MAPS discussion as well as the trans kids movement. I don't think that's a coincidence. Anyone who "consents" to hardcore S&M  is generally because in 99.999% of cases there are major, deep rooted issues to the point that I almost don't know if such a person can be considered willing to care for themselves. Because they are literally destroying their body. Masochism is a condition, as is Sadism. It's not "normal" just because the Shades trilogy pushed many Americans into self-destructive behavior

There are 2 points here that i feel i must make clear. Because we seem to be going in circles.

A) Even though we have gone in circles endlessly about feelings not being actions and actions not being feelings, you continue saying that normalizing pedophilia = normalizing molest. This is a false premise. The same false as saying normalizing sexual desire = normalizing rape.
So even though we go around and around in circles, you stick to your "danger" of normalizing something that isn't intrinsically dangerous. So you are right. I don't see a point of going in circles if we aren't talking to each others points.

B ) You keep on using the word "normalizing" of bdsm (and any other desire) as "proof" that look how far they want to go with "normalization". Yet you ignore the fact, that no matter how bad/immoral/unhealthy bdsm is, it has no comparison to molest/rape. As progressivism normalizes more and more obscene actions, they have become more and more hard line on consent, with phrases such as statutory rape, the #metoo movement, #rapeculture, woman power, child protective laws, and so much more, they are trying very very hard (way more then in the past) to make consent a way bigger deal then it has ever been.  

And therefore, normalizing the actions of consensual bdsm, in no way shape or form, is any proof to normalizing child sex abuse/molest.  Yet you continue to bring that as a "proof". So yes we are going in circles, and not talking to each other. So I think we should exit the traffic circle. That being said, id love to continue the conversation with anyone and everyone.   (including you! -just as long as were not going in circles, I'm getting dizzy)

IMHO, progressives making a big deal about consent is vapid virtue signaling. They don't care about rape or women's rights. Convo for another time.

One difference between interest in children vs. adults is that it is unfortunately easier to abuse a child than an adult, so the danger of fantasy thoughts turning to actions is higher. Agree?

Do you think that if someone is attracted to children, they should or should not curb their thoughts of such acting out, or bodies, etc? Putting aside your sh*ta about how shame can cause harm. Intrinsically??

Human being wrote on 02 Jan 2023 22:34:

G-d gave us sexual desire, so while lusting is wrong, lusting after a woman is natural, and progression from that point is uncommon. Where it could happen, Chazal put in guidelines. On the other hand,  pedophilic feelings are 99% of the time caused by some underlying issues. Let's think about what that means: there is some underlying hole that someone with an unusual attraction is trying to fill. And the way he's trying to self-medicate with isn't going to help it. So the progression of more intense obssesion and attraction is logical. Just like in any substance abuse case the individual is trying to "Fill the hole" with his drug of choice. And we know how that progression goes. That's the difference in my opinion. Doesn't mean every guy with a pedophilic desire will C"V molest someone, but to compare it to lusting after women on the street is wrong (unless you refer to stalking&more)

Human being wrote on 02 Jan 2023 22:34:

The "Hard line on consent" only seems to go one way: against men, Because only they can be abusers (I was molested by a woman)As @franklee wrote, they don't care for children's rights (Just see [or don't] the number of LGBTQ rights orgs who just opposed legistlation requiring porn sites to check users are over 18

jackthejew wrote on 03 Jan 2023 14:05:

Thank you all.

My sense is that most folk know where they stand regardin' what they consider normal and what they don't. I don't believe anyone will be convincin' anybody else to join their side. Perhaps it is time to put this to rest. Just sayin'.

Godspeed to all

frank.lee wrote on 02 Jan 2023 23:30:

Sure.   And the danger of you raping a woman is stronger then you raping a man too.    Should that make us nervous that you are someone who will rape a woman?

frank.lee wrote on 02 Jan 2023 23:30:

Of course they should.  What do you mean intrinsically?

jackthejew wrote on 03 Jan 2023 14:05:

Lusting after woman ("regular desire") has the same affect and cause. Its caused by a hole we are trying aimlessly to fill, that never fills up and it progresses. No difference here in my humble opinion. If we cant stop something that we want to stop, it aint coming from healthy sources. Anyone trying to stop a harmful/unwanted/bad action and they just cant stop--in our case regular ordinary lust-- , even though they very badly want to, ........99.999999% of the time the dynamic is caused by some underlying issues. Let's think about what that means.......

.......there is some underlying hole that someone with a regular sexual attraction is trying to fill. And the way he's trying to self-medicate, (by watching porn/masturbating isn't going to help it. So the progression of more intense obssesion and attraction is logical. Just like in any substance abuse case the individual is trying to "Fill the hole" with his drug of choice. And we know how that progression goes. That's the difference same in my opinion.

cordnoy wrote on 03 Jan 2023 14:31:

From the emails i got, from those affected by various desires, it seems like this discussion should be on the top of every "important threads" board. People need to see this, and to continue seeing this, so they can heal. So they can live. So they can get educated. Yes its important that this topic never "goes away", or we are neglecting to care about all those affected. We need everyone to see both sides of the argument clearly so those who have various challenges knows there's someone speaking the words they wish they can say, but don't have the courage. That theres someone who validates what they wish we understood. That there's someone speaking up for them.   With that ADIOS AMIGOS from this thread until the next time someone comments!

This discussion made me think of this https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/390504-Elevating-the-lowest-of-the-lows#390504
I didn’t think it belonged here so I created a new topic, but it’s connected.

Human being wrote on 03 Jan 2023 20:08:

I am at a point where I try to post only when I think there may be something to add (Not saying I'm good at judging that, just what I'm trying for). Part of this post may be connected to something I've recently realized. The point has been raised quite a few times that most people who join GYE never post. I believe that part of the reason for that may be that the active members of GYE can be broadly categorized in 2 categories: 1. Clinical addiction/ 12 Step guys 2. People who either before or after they begin the recovery process are dealing with or uncover underlying trauma, abuse, or other emotional factors. The "Normal Guy who just gave in to his Yetzer Hora too much" isn't heard from much here to be honest. This is not a criticism of GYE or any of the wonderful guys here, just an observation. Not everyone has an underlying hole they're trying to fill in a clinical term. (I do) Just like anyone who eats food isn't filling a hole in the psyche. The normal sexual attraction is the normal sexual attraction. It's not caused by underlying damage. It's objectively natural and healthy, and many guys who struggle with porn and masturbation have ingrained bad habits, but not necessarily an underlying psychological issue, self- medication, or substance abuse issue. And because healthy guys have this drive and there is more availability then ever before, more guys will fall and need places like GYE. Then they will BE"H join, look around the forum, see that they're not alone (Which for a normal guy is a key part of recovery), maybe post once or twice, and hopefully start the process of getting better working with whomever they choose. But Lav Davka should they even be sticking around on this forum except maybe for accountability posts every once in a while. Just my opinion. Please disagree if you do.