Is it necessary to attend meetings to follow the 12 steps?

eme wrote on 31 Mar 2009 05:10:

I have done the 12 steps without the groups.  So the answer is no.  You do not need to to go.  However, those who went to the groups will tell that you will gain a lot by going to the groups.  In fact they will probably tell me that I have no say about 12 steps (both for good or bad) because I have never attended the groups.

From what I understand, by going to the groups you gain in two main areas. 
Number one, you will get a better understanding of the steps.  This is because it will be explained by those who went through it already.  This is also because you are more focused on the 12 steps.  When doing it on your own, you may end up losing focus on it and therefore have never really done it properly. 
Number two, the groups themselves can have a strong impact on your development. You get an opportunity of sharing your emotions with others like yourself.  You will hear real stories from people who may have been in worse situations than yourself. This social network can be very powerful.  The accountability concept is used for real.  You can see how shomer has grown from the group setting.

But like I stated above, it is possible to grow from the 12 steps without the groups.  Whether I did it the proper way or not, makes no difference. It gave me a framework for growth.  So even if you decide that groups is not for you, for whatever reason, 12 steps can still be your address.  I would advise, though, looking at the Jewish version of the 12 steps.  It is more direct for a yid trying to reconnect.   

I would like to hear from others, like boruch and shomer. What do you guys feel about what I said?  Did I summarize the advantages of groups properly?  In your opinion, did I say something wrong?  Is there anything you have to add?  Please embellish where I wasn't.  Please include stories that will help eme and others decide what to do.

I just want to update what I wrote about hearing R' Tvi Meir's Shmusen, by phone. In addition to the Yerushalayim #(658-1000) there are also two U.S. #'s  (718) 506-1001 and (845) 915-1919

Eme, thank you very much for bringing this important question up. I will try and answer you in today's Chizuk e-mail...

Yaakov, I think you summed up well what the benefits of the groups are. But I disagree with you that someone can do the steps properly without the groups, and in today's e-mail (#444) I think you will see why.

Besides, even if you, Yaakov, feel you succeeded in using the steps without the groups, no one can take your example. You are unique in at least six areas that almost no one else with this struggle is. You are...
1) hyper-focused
2) intensely determined
3) very intelligent
4) intensely spiritual
5) extremely disciplined by nature
6) you feel no nisyonos for the last 50-60 days as you work on this area with a passion

Almost no other struggler I know can fit into your category (Boruch is close  but even he feels the groups is his only hope). Anyone who is less disciplined than you, or feels constant nisyonos even AS they work the steps, would not succeed as you have. And on top of all this, the 12-Steps for you were only a "helpful frame-work". They were not a whole new way of living for you.

So Eme, although you may benefit from reading the AA book and learning about the steps in depth, I don't believe you will really be able to work the steps into your life without the groups. It's like learning Hilchos Shchitah without ever having seen a Shchitah. That's why "Shimush" is vital for any Rav before he can pasken... And today's e-mail will focus on this in a clearer way.

You can also see Chizuk e-mail 442 on this page (scroll down) to see Shomer's story and understand a bit better what I am saying.

And - sorry for repeating this again - make sure to read TODAY'S CHIZUK E-MAIL.

Guard,
You misunderstood me on one minor point.  I was not suggesting a person forget about groups and do 12 steps alone because I gained from them.  I acknowledged the advantages of groups over doing it alone, as you restated.  My point was that even if someone does not feel the groups is right for him, for whatever reason (whether it be practical concerns or other), he should realize that he CAN gain from the 12 steps.  We already established in the last past 7 pages of this thread the importance of going to groups and how EVERYONE (or close to everyone, depending on a machlokes achronim) can gain.  And that there is more to gain than to lose.  I am not arguing that.  But a person should not think that there is nothing to gain from the steps without the groups.  This is what I thought eme was asking.  So the truth is, we should ask eme what he meant.  And so I turn my attention to eme now.

eme,
Please clarify why you are asking what you asked.  Is your dillema whether you should go to 12 steps without the groups? If that is the case, I advise you to listen to the wise advise of the elders of GUE and go to the groups.  Or is your dilemma the follwoing: being that you feel that groups are not right for you (for whatever reason), you are wondering whether there is a purpose of working through the 12 steps.  If that is the case, you can follow me as an example of someone who succeeded with the 12 steps.  On top of that I am offering my assistance in that regard.  However, I should add that even if this is the case, perhaps you want to reconsider.  Take a second look at the possibility of going to groups.

Back to Guard,
I know there was discussion about the difference of promoting vs attracting.  I have to agree with Baruch that we are not attracting enough the idea of the groups.  I did not really know about the groups until boruch came along and discussed them at such great length.  The site discusses the 12 steps and how they are consistent with the Torah. The site gives the Torah version. But does not mention that this requires a group.  Even the story that you link to, does not really elaborate on the groups as much as the steps themselves.  The reader (at least this reader) gets the impression that 12 steps is something you do on your own.  I thought the meetings was like a class for people who do not like to read and introspect.  They need someone else to explain to them what this means.  After reading boruch's post, I began to understand this more. 
I am telling you this from experience.  I heard about the 12 steps from GUE and then from jewishsexuality.com.  I read about it a lot, and by the way jewishsexuality has lots of info.  But I never realized this is something you do in a group.  Yes, you have small links at the bottom of the page, but who sees those. And more so, there are no links to actually find the groups.  There are no links to sa.org, which I discovered a few days ago.  People should be aware that these groups are all over country (U.S. that is). People should be told how to find them.  If this is such a vital need for recovery, we need to offer more info. Just a thought.

guardureyes wrote on 31 Mar 2009 11:57:

Succeeded?  When did I ever say this?  I am only 50-60 days clean, after a 3 month relapse.  I would hardly call that successful.  I chose my original wording carefully.  I said I gained and grew. And that you cannot deny! 

Yes, thanks to Boruch I have realized that there are major problems with the way our site presents the 12-Steps. You will think I am nuts, but I believe today that we should actually REMOVE the steps from our site in their current form - and even more so, we should REMOVE the 12 TORAH steps that I took from Jewishsexuality.com.

Why?!

Read today's Chizuk e-mail and I believe you will agree.

guardureyes wrote on 31 Mar 2009 14:00:


Melachti naasis al yedei acheirim... Thank you Guard...

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 31 Mar 2009 07:01:


Eme, Yaakov,
Here is my experience.

When you work as a Group you have the Power of the Group, just as soldiers find it easier to march when they march in step, so is it easier to Recover as a Group. This is one of the powerful elements in eino domeh merubim ho'oseh mitzvo and BeRov Om. For this reason many Gedolim from the Ramchal to the Chofetz Chaim encouraged chevras to work on specific inyonim.

That said, the single most important purpose of the Group is that the root of addiction is self-absorption and the foundation of Recovery is getting beyond self-centeredness in relationships and reconnecting with family, friends and peers in a giving way.

It is no simple task for the addict, whose addiction has heightened his self-absorption and disconnectedness, to start to reconnect to those with whom he already has relationships with in a new way.

The most effective way of doing this is by joining a new group of people in a fellowship that goes beyond themselves and serves a higher purpose, the purpose of recovery. Creating new relationships around something more idealistic with people who have gone through the same trials and tribulations, who understand the addict on his own terms is a vital and almost irreplacable link in the Recovery.

As open as I have seemed on this Forum on many issues, on certain very personal issues I have kept my cards very close to my chest. I have engaged in more than a little bravado on these forums (often as a mechayev to myself) and I have not bared much weakness (also a deliberate choice).

However, Yaakov, in response to your request for personal stories I am going to break that pattern for the first time.

I am going to limit the details here to a certain degree to protect my anonymity, but I can tell you that I have always been the quintissential loner. As much as I would be superficially sociable, and knew many many people, my relationships across the board were never more than skin deep, they were totally lacking commitment. Underneath I have always been a loner, through and through.

Today, I am a transformed man. I had a conversation recently with one of my children who told me, Totty you are a different man, just a month ago I would talk to you and you just did not understand at all what I was saying, and now you understand me so well.

Today, I am different in all my relationships. I am involved for the first time, I am more open and I am becoming more of a pleasure to be with (it's a strange thing to say, but what can I tell you, it is true).

And I am convinced that this is only the beginning.

I had at an earlier time in my life been involved in avodas hakodesh (I will not go into details on this) and it did not work out. I knew at the time that it was because although on the surface I appeared to be doing a good job, in reality I was lacking in emotional commitment and caring. Of course I did not realize at the time the full scope of the problem.

I had always dreamed that one day that would change. As the years have passed that has remained my dream as much as I seemed no nearer to it all those years later than I was the day I left.

Today, for the first time, I feel a shift in the right direction. It is still early days, and there is much footwork to be done, more remains to be done than has been done already, and I need tremendous siyyata dishmaya.

That said, I sense a shift, a significant shift that started by my getting beyond myself and joining the fellowship and connecting with people face to face in a whole new way.

Now you don't need to worry if you are not as pathological a loner as I was, because that's not a requirement to be able to benefit. Let's face it without self-centredness we do not get addicted. What I will tell you is that in my experience, if the Groups can work in this way for me, they can work for anyone and they can certainly work for you too.

eme wrote on 31 Mar 2009 05:10:


Is it necessary to attend a Yeshiva or Kollel to learn full-time?

If you are the Chazon Ish, you are better off learning on your own.

Is it necessary to attend meetings to follow the 12 steps?

Having read a lot and having had some sort of exposure to many on this forum, I still cannot conceive of anyone who can work the AA System on his own to a degree that it would even meaningfully compare with working it within a 12 Step Group.

The AA 12 Step system is:

1) Working the Steps under the direct, individual and face to face guidance of a sponsor who has successfully used the Steps to gain significant sobriety.

2) Working the Steps as a Group, as members share how the Steps are working for them.

3) Ultimately working the Steps to both individually and as a Group bring others into the Fellowship, so that they too can gain what you gained.

I am trying to think just how any of this could be achieved without the fellowship to any meaningful degree, and what can I tell you, you are asking the wrong guy, I just cannot come up with any shortcuts, I am not smart enough to give you any suggestions.

Diamonds and Pearls of wisdom are being spilled on this forum by Boruch and Shomer lately... will anyone bend down to pick them up?

This Pesach when I say the words "Boruch Shomer Havtachaso Le'yisrael"... I think I'll understand better the words that follow... "SheHakadosh Baruch Hu Chishev es HaKetz"... So many years they struggled, they waited, they tried, they searched, they davened.... But for Boruch and Shomer, Hashem knew when the Ketz would finally come, and he pulled them out from the tumah of Mitzrayim in the nick of time.

The 12-Steps are a Bechinah of Yetzias Mitzrayim. Afilu Kulanu Chachamim, Kulanu Nevonim, Kulanu Yodim es Hatorah - Mitzva Aleinu Lesaper Bi'yetziyas Mitzrayim. Why? Because all the Chachma and Torah won't help you if you don't have the basic foundations of being a "mentch". And that is Yetziyas Mitzrayim. Become a mentch again. Stop serving the Egyptians. Let go of their servitude, come to the dessert and follow Hashem. Only after you've done that for a while can you begin to think of coming to Har Sinai and becoming a Jew.

Boruch has certainly expressed very clearly the benefits and necessity of going to meetings while simultaneously working the steps.

In addition to the benefits of working the steps within the context of a fellowship that boruch has described, there are numerous practical benefits to joining a group as well.

1) Emotional Connection:  Although these forums and the phone support groups are excellent resources that can and should be utilized to their maximum capacity, there is, in my opinion, no substitute for the emotional connections made within an SA meeting.  There is no substitute for sitting in a circle and openly admitting "Hi, my name is Yankel and I am a sex addict.  My addiction takes the form of ........... and I have been sober X amount of days".  There is no substitute for sharing your struggles face to face with a group and working real solutions.  I witnessed a member break down in tears at a recent meeting and although he did not say very much, his message was conveyed loader than mere words have the capacity to express.  Go to a meeting, sit down with others that are suffering as you are, share your struggles, be inspired by their successes ... you will not be disappointed.

2) Phone Support:  It is common practice within SA to exchange phone numbers among members.  The first reaction that SA encourages members to take when they are faced with a challenging situation that they may not be able to handle simply by working the steps is to "make a call".  In addition to the meetings, which are in-and-of themselves very powerful indeed, having a network of people to support, encourage and help is another benefit of joining a group.  Now instead of only one number to call (boruch's), I now have many numbers of people with whom to to call when I am feeling tempted, frustrated or just need a listening ear.  If you have any doubts whether this works, I can attest that this is a core component of what keeps us sober on a daily basis. 

There are many more practical benefits, but you get the idea ...

guardureyes wrote on 31 Mar 2009 11:57:


Actually I never said that at all and if we go apples to apples, it is not true at all that I feel I could not have done it without the groups. I'll explain and I will be a little more open about my issues.

I had a problem with images for 36 years. I was a periodical who consistently fooled myself that my interludes were successful abstinence and that I just had to get the interludes to last longer and I would be fine. I refused to turn to anyone for help, being convinced that I would handle it on my own. What was worse I convinced myself that my problem was not that bad because throughout the years I did my utmost and was largely successful at stopping my obsessions with the images every time I indulged, before I had gone "too far".

In addition as much as I sincerely felt that what I was doing was wrong and it did disturb my conscience, I never suffered from anything remotely like depression or remorse at all. On one occasion after a whole night of periodically viewing images I gave a Shiur and had no problem with it at all. Over a year ago Shomer caught me and it hardly made even a dent, even before he confided that he had the same issue. He told me how he had struggled for years and tried many options and I was impressed by his seriousness, but was very accepting of my own relative apathy, that was just me, I thought.

Then we were both yo-yo-ing in and out of sobriety backwards and forwards for over a year while Shomer was actively doing everything he could including working on his Yiddishkeit and being active daily with readings about problems with addiction, creating a blog on addiction, posting on various sites including this one, while I was happily burying my head in the sand, convincing myself that he had a worse problem than I did (which as a matter of fact, is very likely, although it certainly is no excuse) and just accepting that I meant well and was doing my best without seriously trying anything.

Then in December after a sustained period of relative sobriety my addiction returned with a vengeance. It got progressively worse and worse until I was involved every day and much more consistently than I ever had been.

My rock-bottom came on January 19th. By that time I had been spending hours on end every day gazing at images, despite filters and accountability software and whatever else. By January 19th though, I had been clean for a couple of days. I had a couple of near misses when I was almost caught by a Rov, but that was a story in its own right, I had beefed up our accountability system, I had confided in my therapist and that day I discovered Shomer's posts on this forum and was truly impressed. I felt for the first time that I was actually taking my addiction seriously and that I was finally beyond it.

That night I was alone and working, I got distracted and in no time I was engrossed as never before. At some point I caught myself and saw on my watch that it was time for evening seder and for the first time when presented with the conflict, instead of half-heartedly lying to myself that I would go in just another minute, as I consistently did in the past, I actually wanted very very much to go to seder, not to escape my addiction, but to be a part of the learning. I realized that at that point in time I was powerless and I just watched as I was taken over and time ran out and seder was over as much as I had really wanted to go.

Later, when the madness left me and I had returned to my senses, I realized that I had totally lost control. Here I had really wanted to go to seder without excuses and I had not been able to. Despite the fact that I had told my therapist. Despite the fact that I was almost caught. Despite the fact that we had improved our accountability system. Despite the fact that I was serious for the first time. Despite the fact that I had been so inspired that afternoon by Shomer's posts. Despite the fact I had been convinced that I had said goodbye to my addiction forever.

And I was seized by a passion. This had gone far too far. A red line had been crossed, and for the first time, without any excuses it was clear to me that, that night, my addiction had clearly and obviously licked me. I was not going to take that lying down and I made a decision. There was no way that I would ever let that happen again.

I made a decision. I knew that I had one weapon with which I could destroy my addiction for good. I knew what I had to do and so I enlisted my biggest yetzer hora, my pride, to destroy my lesser yetzer hora, my addiction, once and for all. I decided right then and there to post on this forum and publicly and dramatically crush my addiction, do a permanent azivas hachet and a real teshuva, right here on these forums.

So could I have done it without the groups? It depends what "it" is. I had given up pornography for life, forever, no ifs ands or buts. I was determined to do a genuine and lasting Teshuva with all 20 ikkarim of Rabbeinu Yonah, including a total transformation of my avodas Hashem. And I am convinced that I did not need the groups for that.

So if the narrow goal was to get beyond the images, to do a full Teshuva on the images and to transform my avodas Hashem, no, I believe that I would have kept that up without relapses, ad meiah ve'esrim. Of course I may be delusional, but whether I am right or not about that I certainly never said that I could not do "that" without the groups.

Here, though, is what I would never have even dreamed of without the groups, never mind have implemented:

1) I had given up pornography, but it would never even have occurred to me to give up the excessive and unnatural cravings of the taava itself, what SA calls lust. BeChasdei Hashem Yisborach I found SA and I gave up lust, the "right" to lust and the "expectation" of lust forever, I have finally given up on all the obsession and compulsion that used to be such an integral part of my physical desire.

2) I had a concept of tikkun hamiddos, but I thought, that as R' Yisroel Salanter said, it takes a lifetime to change a midda and everything I had tried for over 20 years of learning mussar seemed to back that up. Of course R' Yisroel was certainly 1000% right, he knew what he was talking about. But that was not my issue, nor is it the issue with us addicts. In fact one of the most widespread misconceptions is that this has much relevance to anyone today.

Here is why.

We have our natural middos and those take a lifetime to change and improve. However, those middos that we have are supposed to be balanced, as the Rambam says in Hilchos Deios in the Derech Yeshoro, the Derech Hamemutza. We live, however, in a society that between stresses, selfishness and poisonous attitudes ensures that the biggest middos issue of our dor is not that we have not improved beyond the default nature of our natural middos, our problem is that the natural middos we have are totally unbalanced and have run amok.

For years I was trying to work on my middos instead of realizing that I would do very, very well with my middos as they are naturally today, if only I would learn derech yeshoro, if only I would learn to be a mentsch and not behave as if I were less than a beheimo. And I can tell you from personal experience that joining the fellowship is the most foolproof, most effective and fastest way to gain mentschlechkeit that I have ever encountered.

Joining the fellowship gets straight to the core of how to behave like a mentsch in a totally new environment, learning alongside others, and I for one could have learned, read, analyzed hundreds of times and even tried to practice the Steps from the Big Book, which by the way I would never have done anyway without the groups, and I could have become an 'armchair expert' on the steps, but I would not have become much of a mentsch without having had to interact with others in the group, without having to have gone through joining as a plain newcomer and without having to grow into the groups alongside others who were more senior and more experienced. That was a new and very humbling experience and it made something of the beginnings of a mentsch out of me.

For me this was even more pronounced because I was very self-conscious of joining a group with Frum Yidden, and to a certain extent I was also concerned with my anonymity and so I had chosen to join a non-Jewish group. I was unable to impress any of them with my learning and determination because almost to a man, they appreciate humility and patience much more than they appreciate learning and determination.

Of course, it is a very good thing that SA is about anonymity, that it is about principles and not personalities, because if we are talking about personalities, if we are talking about me, I am not yet an example of a mentsch by any stretch. That said I have made progress in a very short time that went well beyond my wildest expectations. I could never have done that without the groups.

3) I would never in a thousand years have broken out of a self-centered and self-righteous existence that I had for years been excusing with chayecho kodmin, torah hi velilmod ani tzorich, talmud torah keneged kulom and other examples of Torah and Maamorei Chazal that I was using out of context to justify my lack of basic mentschleschkeit.

Again beChasdei Hashem I found the groups and discovered how to help others on a consistent and ongoing basis, for them and not for me, as opposed to once in a yovel putting other people first in my mind.

So, it all depends on what the "it" is.

Being honest and putting modesty aside, I do not for a minute believe that I would be doing any less than what I have seen Yaakov post about on this forum (obviously I don't know what he has not told us), albeit in my own way, even if I had never gone to the groups at all and without working the Steps at all, on any level whatsoever.

But without the groups my Recovery would be a very poor shadow of what it is now. I truly believe that the Eibishter saw that I was at least a "bo letaher" if nothing else and in His Chesed, without any merit on my part, He had Rachmonus and directed me toward a Derech Yeshoro unlike anything I have ever known or experienced.

Blown away.  :o

Hi Guys! I've been away for quite a while, and now I'm back. (This is probably the only day that I'll be here this week, but Iy'H I'll be back next week.) Boruch, your last post here is very powerful and very enlightening to say the least.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that one of the most basic benefits of the groups has not been given enough emphasis over here.
First a hakdomoh: One of the greatest obstacles that stop a person from changing, is the notion that it can be done without a lot of investment. We live in the generation of instant results, and we come to expect that whatever needs to happen should happen quickly. (This is a big sugya and this is not the place to elaborate on it) Furthermore, we tend to forget that our whole purpose on this world is to change and improve. We tend to look at any weakness that we have as an "inconvenience" that needs to be gotten out of our way (or ignored) while in reality it's Hashem's personal message to us telling us exactly what He sent us to this world for.

So what happens is, that it usually doesn't even occur to a person to really spend time, energy and "focus" on improvement and particularly on recovery. Hashem tells us "T'na b'ni libcha li" -give me your HEART, it means your whole heart. When Hashem makes it obvious to you what you have to work on, it logically follows that it should be the main focus of your life. But we usually don't get the message. Yes, we try, we may even post on the forum, but often we are not willing or not able to really invest concerted effort. We may even be moser nefesh (as in the story with the freezing cold mikvah) and we may even be contemplating suicide - chas ve'sholom.

But we can only be successful when we except the mission that Hashem has given us, instead of trying to dodge it. And that means to patiently -with yishuv hadaas- invest our "focus", our time and our effort on that mission.
For most people, it may very well be impossible to do that without a group that's concentrating on exactly that. Joining a group is a commitment and at the same time provides an ideal framework for serious focused persistent work.

[This yesod (and the value of working as a group) is one of the many great yesodos that I learned from R' Tvi Meir. After hearing him speak about it a few times, my whole way of thinking began to change. I don't think this short post gets the message across, but at-least I tried.]

Wow Battleworn, that's beautiful!

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