guardureyes wrote on 19 Mar 2009 19:35:


When you actually read the literature it makes all the difference in the World:

Tradition #5 Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the sexaholic who still suffers.

And "Working with Others" an entire Chapter 7 in the Big Book in the PDF I sent you and also here

I moved this thread from Yaakov's Log on the "Wall of Honor" board, to here. It's a wonderful thread, but it doesn't really belong on Yaakov's Log - especially since he hasn't even been part of this particular discussion really.

I thought I wasn't going to reply here, but now I changed my mind. I see that although I yearn for the madreiga where I could just let it all roll right of my back, I clearly have not gotten there yet. I want to make it very clear that I do not think there's any to'eles to this debate and the only reason I right the following is to get it off my chest instead of keeping it inside.






Here are my answers:
1) No I don't agree at all. We definitely should express our opinions. That's the point of the forum ,there's even a special section called "What works for me".
I agree that we should not stuff our opinion down other people's throats.
I also agree that we should not express opinions which can jepordize someone's chances of getting help. That is why I (unlike some other people) have allways tried to be careful and to think before posting what the effect of my post might be. IF ANYONE FEELS THAT I EVER POSTED AN OPINION WHICH DISCOURAGED THEM FROM GOING TO THE GROUPS, PLEASE SPEAK UP.   

2) Yes I agree but I have absolutely no idea what it has to do with anything. If you mean to say that I need to be humble enough to recognize that R' Twerski is not an expert, then of-course I disagree.

3)Being that I don't know exactly what you're reffering to, I'll try to cover all the possibilities.

Think you can do this without the 12 steps groups? Do you think that you can serenely learn the Eibishter's Torah while the yetzer hora disturbs you with the most profane temptations? I wish you the best of luck, but it is at very least, much easier said than done. And it is certainly a lot easier to do it a lot more effectively by joining a 12 step group.



I made it very clear that I'm not pushing anyone anywhere. All I did was use R' T' M' as an example of how I don't tell other people what to do. I did not discuss people who are suffering and in addition I even said that I may be wrong about yaakov who is B'H not suffering. I Also made it clear that I'm not interested in debating anyone.

But boruch and Rabeinu Guard felt thought that it would be le'to'eles to force me to discuss what I don't want to.



Please read that again. He B'chcodo u'vi'atzmo is asking me. Is this communist Russia over here? You ask me a question and then you have taynos on me for answering you honestly? You defintely could have kept quite; there was nothing forcing you to ask me this question.



Notice that I made it very clear: "If you're asking me"




Again it was not my choice to discuss this but rather yours



I did NOT offer any opinion over here. These are Guards words, not mine! I thought that was clear!
Apparently Guard misunderstood the point of this quote, and thought it was about the first question [(a) above]
So he posted this:




It seemed to me to imply that R' Twerski holds that the steps are lichatchila which I know not to be the case. Being that this was said in a discussion with me, I could not remain silent. So I responded NOT with my opinion but with plain facts: A quote from guard and simple undesputed Torah Hashkafa


 

To this I would add the following quote from R' Twerski himself:



It is very clear that R' Twerski is reccomending the groups not because he thinks they're lechatchila but rather because there's no other choice. This is NOT my opinion it's R' Twerski's.

I also saw that both Guard and Boruch were trying to shy away from R' Twerski's opinion that the groups are not for everyone. So I ASKED Guard to clarify.




Notice that I asked: IF there's a different option what would he say. I was not disscusing weather there is or not.




This is pathetic. You can't fool me. I read the book and according to his criteria no addict will ever come to the forum or website.

At this point Guard decided to challenge me about R'T' M'(This may have been due to the above misunderstanding)




You should realize that I saw this quote from R' Twerski a long time ago, and I didn't say anything. But now Guard felt that it would be benificial to ask me if R' T' M' has these ingredients. So being that as far as I know, this is not communist Russia, I again answered honestly.





I didn't claim to be an expert of any sort, all I did was answer the question that I WAS ASKED!




Are you nuts? Because I'm unfamiliar with the steps, I can't ask Guard to better explain his/R' Twerski's criteria for we should encourage to go?




Who did I suggest it to? Guard?




Again with the phone conferences! I have never ever said a word about the phone conferences. If you have a problem with R' Twerski, take it up with him what lemaan Hashem do you want from my life?




When did I ever do such a thing? Maybe you're confusing with R' Twerski.

I have to run now so I can't check this thing over, sorry.

I'm glad you got that off your chest, dear Battleworn. Now, let's move on! 
There's a battle to be fought and you are one of the generals.

Can I be a general too?

Only if you change your name from Ano to AMMO. A general needs AMMO to fight 

Hail to general Ano/Ammo!

OK, Battleworn, your post was very enlightening, I am glad you answered and I am going to make this extremely simple, for you and anyone else reading this.

On the one hand there is:

1) Your personal experience of what works for you which is what you know at first hand about how methods that you have actually used have worked for you.

Then on the other hand there are your opinions of:

2) What you believe about other methods that you have not used.

3) Your opinions on how methods that you have not used compare with methods you have used.

4) Your opinions about whether methods that you have not used should be used.

On number 1, what works for you you have a lot of value to offer this forum that only you can offer.

You, for example, have an excellent opportunity to describe, in even the vaguest terms, if you prefer not to go into detail, how your struggle was before R' Tzodok and how it was afterwards. You could describe what it was that you believe did it for you and how.

The same would apply equally to Rav Tzvi Meir. Just hypothetically, if this were the case, you could describe how you used to be constantly fighting the yetzer hora of temptation every time you would be reminded of something and how after going regularly to Rav Tzvi Meir you would just think of this or that thought and the temptation would subside.

That is what I was eager to hear from you, that is no doubt what others want to hear from you, and that is what I am still waiting to hear from you. And when it comes to that, you are the undisputed expert. In the AA system they call that sharing experience, strength and hope. When you take that route there will be no debates at all. How could anyone in their right mind possibly argue with your experience of what worked for you?

That's what leads to achdus on the forum.

Here, in contrast, is what leads to debates, of your own making:

battleworn]
But listen to this: To me it's seems clear that going to R' Tvi Meir instead of the 12 groups, is at least a 100 times as amazing.[/quote]

Imagine that you had never learned sefer mesilas yeshorim in your life.

Imagine that you saw on a website that it is a sefer on the ten steps in the Braisa of R' Pinchos b' Yoir.

Imagine that you looked at that list of 10 steps posted on that website without reading one word of the text of the mesilas yeshorim itself.

Imagine that you saw on that website a brief discussion, written by a contemporary author, of what chaburas and vaadim that work on mesilas yeshorim can achieve as opposed to other methods.

Would you feel qualified based on the list of steps in the braisa and the description of the contemporary author to express opinions on what could be achieved by learning mesilas yeshorim? Would you feel qualified to compare what such chaburas and vaadim could achieve as compared to what you could get from Rav Tzvi Meir?

I have a potentially surprising comment to your possible answer to the above question. It makes absolutely no difference what your answer would be. Regardless of whether or not you would feel qualified, you would be unqualified. Why? Not because you are too young. Not because you do not have sufficient experience. But because you have nothing useful to offer with your opinions on matters with which you are entirely unfamiliar.

Battleworn, you do not know this and it should not be necessary for me to explain it to you, but the list of 12 steps were never a program in their own right. The fact that you see them posted all over the web, including on this site, shows only one thing, how superficial society is today and how much people crave instant gratification.

Just consider what the 12 step system actually is.

The Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) system that everyone refers to as the 12 steps actually comprises of three parts:

1) Attending group meetings at which much of the time was spent on public readings from AA literature and the rest on individuals sharing their stories, focusing on solutions and not problems, often connected to what they had just read, on [i]how the AA system was working for them[/i]. As above they shared their experience, strength and hope. (As a rule they kept away from expressing personal opinions).

2) Having a sponsor, a fellow member, usually with a significant sobriety period, who supports and guides the AA member on working the 12 steps.

3) Working the Steps into daily life.

The AA member does not need to read the AA Book to work the system, the AA member does not even have to know how to read. He hears 20-25 minutes of AA literature read aloud in each meeting and many of his fellow members, especially his sponsor have read the book. He gets the system without reading the AA Book or any other AA literature by learning from everyone else.

Today many recovery groups such as NA - Narcotics Anonymous, OA - Overeaters Anonymous and SA - Sexaholics Anonymous use the same system for their respective addictions.

However, anyone who has neither read the literature, nor done the system as part of a group, not only does not have any personal experience of the AA 12 Step system, they have no idea whatsoever it is.

They have no more idea of what the system is from looking through an online list of 12 steps than they could figure out the sefer mesilas yeshorim from the braysa of R' Pinchas ben Yoir.

Now, battleworn, you, Yaakov and many others on this site are not told this when you come on this site and it is not your fault. It is a fundamental problem with the site that Guard recognizes and he tells me it will be fixed in the near future.

But that is not even the point. Even if you had read the AA literature and even of you had knowledge of the system, since you have no experience of it, you are not offering an informed opinion when you try and discuss the merits of the AA system and when you try and compare it with methods with which you are familiar. And an uninformed opinion is worse than no opinion. Especially on a site where people are looking for excuses to not do what they need to be doing.

[quote= wrote:


So, battleworn once again, you say it gave you all that and a lot more. I was not asking for comparisons between a method you know and a method you don't. I wanted to hear from you with a little more detail than "all that" of what it did for you, not what you think that it gave you more than other methods of which you have no experience. Expressing your opinions on relative advantages over a method of which you have no experience is idle and uninformed speculation.

And battleworn, this forum is an opportunity for both you and Yaakov to learn one of the things that I learned from the Groups that you too can learn without having to actually go yourselves. When you focus on your own experience of "What Works for Me" you will be giving much more than opinions.

battleworn] It seemed to me to imply that R' Twerski holds that the steps are lichatchila which I know not to be the case.[/quote]

You are equating your understanding of Rabbi Twersky with your claimed knowledge of what he holds. If you actually knew what Rabbi Twersky held you would not have quoted Guard. You do not know what Rabbi Twersky holds, you think you know. Again, you never spoke to Rabbi Twersky about this, you have no first-hand knowledge of what he holds, all you have is your interpretation of what you believe that Rabbi Twersky holds. Now you may believe that your interpretation is well-informed and correct, but even if you were right, and you are most certainly wrong, recognizing the difference between knowledge and interpretation would save you much debate.

[quote= wrote:


You responded with your own reading into the quote from Rabbi Twersky and your own belief about Torah Hashkofo. Neither are plain and neither are facts. One plain fact is that there are conceivable circumstances in which the wrong person in the wrong group could lose out. Another plain fact is that you know nothing of the groups, nothing of the likelihood of problems in the groups and nothing at all about hashkofas haTorah on what risks are worth taking as is very obvious from this remark here:

[quote="battleworn]
The 12 Steps groups around the world are intentionally mixed, even though it is known that the opposite sexes do trigger each other in group support - especially for addicts. And yes, this can -and has - led to trouble, but only with those who hadn't really hit bottom or weren't really ready for the groups yet...
HOWEVER - and this is a big HOWEVER, as frum people, we can't take these kind of risks, even if there is some benefit to be found in it. The risk of even one person falling is not worth the gain.

I want to clarify a Hashkafa point over here. For Holy Jews that were commanded by Hashem "Kidoshim tih'yu" the problem is not only the risk of falling. Kol makom she'atoh motzei GEDER ervah atoh motzai kidusha. The Chofetz Chayim said: the more geder; the more kedusha and siyata dishmaya. I think that if one goes to the groups unnecessarily he's probably over an issur di'oraisoh of kidoshim tih'yu. So even if someone doesn't fall, it's clearly not the ideal solution.[/quote]

Before I speak about your lack of experience I will speak of my experience. I have gone to groups at one SA location and Shomer has gone to two other locations. There were no women at any of the meetings we have attended.

Getting back to the question itself, I assume that you do not think that you are HoRav Chaim Kanievsky and so you ought to realize that you are way out of your depth on she'eilos of this nature. You are suggesting that many addicts who are constantly being vaday nichshal in vaday arayos should across the board and as a rule avoid what has the best track record and the best chance of working for them because of the hypothetical risk that under the wrong conditions isolated addicts might be tempted to do shelo kehogen and bring evil upon themselves. The best geder erva is to get people who are constantly being nichshal in arayos to get the best treatment available.

Now it's not relevant how uninformed and misguided your comment was. It is not relevant that you call such ignorance "simple undisputed Torah Hashkofo". What is relevant is that you have no idea of the metzius of the nature of the various groups, that you do not know the halochos and hashkofos that are relevant to this question and yet you express opinions as if you are an authority on the subject.
   
What is relevant is that if instead of pontificating on issues on which you are totally unequipped to address you gave us some real details of your own experience with the methods you had tried and how they have helped you deal with your nisyonos we would all be better off.

battleworn]
At this point Guard decided to challenge me about R'T' M'(This may have been due to the above misunderstanding)

[quote]And the reason for it is, as Rabbi Twerski once wrote:

- I have attended many mussar shiurim. Everybody understands the importance of mussar, but I doubt if many people walk away with the feeling, wrote:


Ah, finally some experience. Please battleworn, when it came to your opinions, you did not spare us the word-count, if you would only give us half as many words on your experience with the musar groups, how you felt beforehand, how you felt at the time, how the musar groups have changed the way you deal with the addiction, then we would really be getting where we need to be.


battleworn] [quote] No one in any mussar shiur I attended has ever spoken up and said, wrote:


So let us apply the message that should now be obvious. Your experience says that this holy forum does it. Your opinion, or rather since your opinion is based totally on ignorance, your prejudice, claims that it is better and more balanced. Which do you think we want, your experience or your prejudice?

battleworn]
[quote]
- I don't recall anyone in a mussar shiur being so touched that they began to cry. It happens often in the 12 step program.[/quote]

That's how I know that R' Twerski was apparently never by R' Tzvi Meir[/quote]

OK, and you were, so tell us more.


[quote= wrote:


So go ahead, battleworn, and share the strength, hope and courage you got from there with us .

battleworn][quote]
Rav Tzvi Meyer's Shiurim may be super-powerful, but I don't know if they have these above ingredients which are so vital to recovery for the hard-core addict.[/quote]

Not only do they have all the ingredients, they have a lot lot more.

I didn't claim to be an expert of any sort, all I did was answer the question that I WAS ASKED![/quote]

You do not know and cannot know what they would do for wrote:


You were the one who quoted Rabbi Twersky about the phone groups and said you would rely on his judgement on that.

[quote="battleworn][quote]
None of us would walk into a Beis Hamedrash and start giving shiur on a sugya that we had not adequately prepared. On this forum it's pikuach nefesh.[/quote]

When did I ever do such a thing? Maybe you're confusing with R' Twerski.[/quote]

No confusion here at all. Rabbi Twersky is a little older and wiser than you. True, he is not an addict, he doesn't know a lot about the groups and he has not always answered the questions in the clearest way, but at least what he wrote is largely based on experience and commonsense. By contrast, you, with all of your enthusiasm, have rushed to judgment, with neither knowledge nor experience.

So how can I make it more simple?

Sharing [b]experience strength and hope[/b], means sharing [b]what has worked for you[/b].

As you can plainly see, Boruch won't let. By the way did he ever read my story?

Boruch, you can see Battleworn's VERY inspiring story over here, and you can also see some of WHAT WORKED FOR HIM over here.

Battleworn has much experience and he has shared a LOT of it with us over the past year. I ask you please Boruch, to answer him on the forum with utmost respect and love, as if you were talking to your best friend. After all, you and him are both searching only for the truth and how to best help people. And both of you are from Hashem's most precious and greatest warriors in this area of Shmiras Habris. There's no point in continually quoting what the other has said and then refuting it. Instead, both of you, I would just write things the way you see them, without quoting anything said in the past. (See my next post for something along the lines of what I mean).

Just one more comment Boruch, on what you wrote:




Boruch, from what I understand, Rabbi Twerski is/was the head of one of the largest Alcholol rehab centers in the U.S and he has extensive and intimate knowlege on the groups and steps, having helped thousands of people through them. That is one of the biggest reasons that his guidance to us is so precious.

Between the quotes and mutual recriminations above, I was able to take out some beautiful points from Boruch's post. I edited it a little, and I hope to post it on our site somewhere or send it as a Chizuk e-mail sometime:

The list of 12 steps were never a program in their own right. The fact that you see them posted all over the webshows only one thing, how superficial society is today and how much people crave instant gratification.

The Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) system that everyone refers to as the 12 steps actually comprises of three parts:

1) Attending group meetings, at which much of the time is spent on public readings (out-loud) from AA literature and the rest on individuals sharing their stories, focusing on solutions (and not problems), often connected to what they had just read, on how the AA system was working for them. And they shared their experience, strength and hope.

2) Having a sponsor, a fellow member, usually with a significant sobriety period, who supports and guides the AA member on working the 12 steps.

3) Working the Steps into daily life.

The AA member does not need to read the AA Book to work the system, the AA member does not even have to know how to read. He hears 20-25 minutes of AA literature read aloud in each meeting and many of his fellow members, especially his sponsor have read the book. He gets the system without reading the AA Book or any other AA literature, by simply learning from everyone else.

Today many recovery groups such as NA - Narcotics Anonymous, OA - Overeaters Anonymous and SA - Sexaholics Anonymous use the same system for their respective addictions.

However, anyone who has neither read the literature, nor done the system as part of a group, not only does not have any personal experience of the AA 12 Step system, they have no idea whatsoever it is.

They have no more idea of what the system is from looking through an online list of 12 steps than they could figure out the entire sefer mesilas yeshorim from the braysa of R' Pinchas ben Yoir (which contains ten steps, upon which the Mesilas Yesharim is based).

guardureyes wrote on 24 Mar 2009 13:26:


Guard, mussar taken, my tone was definitely too harsh, and as much as the inner "addict" in me could find 150 ways to be metaher the sheretz of kaas and gaava, you are 100% right.

To me there is one yesod in Yiddishkeit that demands and requires that we addicts and this addict, me, use the 12 steps.

Our own daas, yes this was my daas too originally and it is the daas of almost everyone on this site (which often falsely appears to us as daas Torah, see the Gr"o Mishlei 16:2 that our daas is possul and we should not rely on it at all) is that the addict needs more Torah and more Kedusha, and that is how we will be saved from our yetzer hora.

The Eibishter's daas is very different. As the novi says in Yeshaya (55:8,9):

ח: כי לא מחשבותי מחשבותיכם ולא דרכיכם דרכי נאם ה'. כי גבהו שמים מארץ כן גבהו דרכי מדרכיכם ומחשבתי ממחשבתיכם..,

My thoughts are not your thoughts and your ways are not My ways, Says Hashem. Just as the Sky is higher than the Earth so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts higher than your thoughts.

The Rambam says in Hilchos Talmud Torah (4:1):

הלכות תלמוד תורה פרק ד

א  אין מלמדין דברי תורה אלא לתלמיד הגון נאה במעשיו, או לתם.  אבל אם היה הולך בדרך לא טובה, מחזירין אותו למוטב, ומנהיגין אותו בדרך ישרה, ובודקין אותו; ואחר כך מכניסין אותו לבית המדרש, ומלמדין אותו.

One can only teach Torah to either a talmid that we know has appropriate behavior, or someone whose nature is not apparent (see Kesef Mishna). However, if a talmid is on a derech lo tova you do not teach him Torah, you first have to return him to the path of tov and guide him to the path of yashrus. Then we check that he is sound and only then do we teach him.

The Gemoro in Shabbos (31a) speaks of someone who has Torah without Yiras Shomayim:

דף לא,א
אמר רבה בר רב הונא כל אדם שיש בו תורה ואין בו יראת שמים דומה לגזבר שמסרו לו מפתחות הפנימיות ומפתחות החיצונות לא מסרו לו בהי עייל. 

Rabbah bar Rav Huna said whoever has Torah without Yiras Shomayim is like the treasure keeper who has the keys to doors of the inner vault, but does not have the keys to the outer doors. How is he to get access to the treasure?

Rav Avigdor Miller Zt"l was once asked, the sefer Chovos Halevovos constantly refers to the chiyuv of hakoras hatov to Hakodosh Boruch Hu as being the yesod and basis for our chiyuv to do all mitzvos. The questioner asked, I did not ask Hashem to create me, so why should I be grateful to Him? Rav Avigdor Miller Zt"l answered that the Chovos Halevovos is only written for "mentschen" it was not written for someone who is bichlal not a "mentsch".

His answer was clear. The Chovos Halevovos assumes a certain madreigo, a certain level of character. If someone is so ungrateful that he cannot have gratitude for his life, the greatest gift imaginable, simply because he never asked for it then he is not even a mentsch.

The message is clear. Torah, Yiras Shomayim and Mussar all require as the Rambam says a minimum of behavior. They were written and given for "mentschen".

But as Rabbeinu Yonah says of the choteh in Shaarei Teshuva 1:10, and this certainly is true of an addict who has lost self-control:

איך נמשלתי כבהמות נדמיתי... ועוד כי כמשפט הבהמה לא עשיתי אבל שפלתי ממנה

I have been like animals... and furthermore I have sunk to being less than an animal...

And there is no point fooling ourselves or making self-serving excuses that we only need to give ourselves more chizuk.

The one thing an addict who wants to cure himself needs much more than any chizuk is a good hard dose of honesty and a sobering dose of reality. Without brutal honesty the addict will never recover. So let us be brave and let us be honest.

Yes, we need to say this loud and clear:

We have been less than animals

Now that we have been honest, we need some more honesty and we need some action.

How is the addict who has sunk below the level of an animal supposed to get back to being at the level of a mentsch?

It is not his kedusha, or his top floor that has a problem, it is not his Chochmas HaTorah, or his first floor and not even his Yiddishkeit, his basement, that is broken.

His very yesodos and foundations are broken, not only is he not a kodosh, not only is he not a talmid chochom, not only is he not a poshutte yid, he is not even a mentsch -- even a goy should not be a sex addict, he is less than a decent goy, less than an animal.

And I will say it myself, difficult as it is to say.

I was an addict for many many years, until only very very recently and for all that time I was not a kodosh, not a talmid chochom, not a poshutte yid, not even a mentsch - I was less than a decent goy, and even less than an animal.

And when the foundations are broken, when the yesodos are bad, we don't use the top floor or kedusha to build foundations, you don't use Torah to build foundations as the Rambam says in hilchos Talmud Torah, you don't use musar seforim that were written for mentschen, you need to go back to the very foundations that even goyim can understand and start rebuilding new foundations.

You need to go back, not to protim like mikva, tikkunim, chumras in zivug and shmiras ainayim which belong on the top floor of kedusha, not to klolim like limud haTorah which are for the first floor. Not to mussar seforim which are for the basement.

We addicts need the most basic yesodos of mentschlechkeit, we need the avnei yesod so basic that even sex addicts and alcoholics get them. We need to look out for which avnei yesod which basics of mentshlechkeit, which fundamental moral principles worked for addicts to help them recover.

The record is clear. The addicts who, in the first 20 years of AA, were the most successful in recovery, used, what AA literature again and again stresses are moral principles so basic that every religion agrees to them. As the AA motto goes, Keep it Simple.

That is how you build new foundations. With brutal honesty and absolute humility.

Yes, let us be very honest here. It is "passt nischt" for us choshuve yidden, many of whom feel we are talmidei chachomim to admit that we have been less than beheimos. It is "passt nischt" for us choshuve yidden, some of us, myself included, who felt that we were talmidei chachomim to admit that we need to recover like goyyishe addicts.

And Hakodosh Boruch Hu laughs at us, lovingly and says "and it was passt yoh, to be addicted to sex?"

So teireh brideren, dear brothers, I mean this from the very depths of my heart and I mean this out of love, let us stop fooling ourselves.

Whether we have recovered entirely from our addiction, whether we are in active recovery without recent relapse, whether are in active recovery following a recent relapse or whether we have not begun recovery at all. By all means let us not wait another day to build a path of kedusha, let us not wait another day, to build a path of Torah, let us not wait another day to build a path of mussar. But we do not want our efforts to be in vein. A building without foundations can be torn down by the first strong wind. We do not want chas vesholom to be vulnerable and to risk all of our efforts, to lose all of our Kedusha, Torah and mussar to the first relapse.

So let us not ignore the foundations of basic mentschlechkeit. Let us learn the lesson of the drunks of AA. Let us Keep it Simple.

The yetzer horo knows that once he can make it complicated he will win. The foundation of our binyan, of our migdol to fight the yetzer hora has to be made from steps so simple, so basic that you can do all 12 steps wherever you are, in any time or place, without any inherent madreigo or level required. Steps that are so yesodosdik that everyone, even the drunk, even this drunk, me, gets them.

This post of yours, Boruch, is so beautiful, so enlightening and so true - that it brought TEARS to my eyes. You have literally shined a new light of understanding on this entire struggle for me and - I hope - for everyone on this forum!

I just read this thread from beginning to end and, at the risk of violating one of Boruch's rules (please disregard if I didn't understand it correctly) against expressing personal opinions on the forum, I LOVE EVERY WORD!  Here's why (personal experience here, good old "experience, strength and hope").  It’s clear that both Boruch and Battleworn have sweated for significant periods of time, investing tremendous energy, effort and life into understanding themselves, how they were affected by lust and how to overcome it.  This is magnificent!!!  This is what the forum is for.  I received tremendous chizuk from reading this thread because I feel part of this group too.  I too spend a lot of time every single day, thinking about how lust affected me and how to overcome it.  I too put effort and toil into understanding myself and how to live the words “sur merah va’aseh tov”.  Feeling part of a group is a key to Recovery.  In fact, it’s a key to healthy living generally and is one of the main drawbacks of the free and open societies in which we live today – you can live on an island in the middle of millions of people and if you don’t actively reach out to make yourself part of a community or group, you can lose out and risk falling into negative habits and behaviors.  Here we share experience and insight and help each other by doing so, but similar to the AA member who is helped even without knowing how to read, if you only get the feeling of being part of this forum without understanding or focusing on a word that’s being said, you gain immeasurably (although the words too are pure sweetness and understanding them adds greatly to the benefits). 

Now for some opinion (sorry Boruch).  Just to be clear, I have never attended a 12 step program and will not offer an opinion as to the benefits or drawbacks of this particular path.  However the idea of “doing whatever it takes” and doing it as designed, correctly, without any deviation based on personal judgment, is something I can speak to from experience.  In fact, any serious member of this forum can do so.  We’re here because we’ve fallen, to one degree or another, for the temptations of  the Y”H and lust.  Furthermore, we’ve tried to control ourselves, we did not want to continue those behaviors, however we were not as successful as we hoped we’d be.  After going through this cycle many times (sometimes over several decades and sometimes with extreme highs and lows) we found our way here because we needed, at a minimum, an understanding ear, support and encouragement, because we needed this site (Thank You Guard) to in order to grow and we take growth seriously.  No one wants to acknowledge sins of the flesh, even anonymously, but here were are.  So we can all appreciate the need to “do what it takes”.  And where indicated, we all agree that there’s a rightful place for 12 step programs, at least for some of us.  For others, R’ Tzvi Meir does the trick.  But if the 12 step program is the right answer, then I agree with Boruch that meeting over the phone, or with modified steps, is not lechatchilah.  By tailoring the 12 step program even an iota, you’re exerting control over how you cope with the addiction…exactly the opposite of step 1 (correct me if I’m wrong here Boruch).  In that case, making a cheshbon based on frumkeit falls under the prohibition “al tehi Tzaddik harbeh”.

I believe that determining whether the 12 steps are indicated or not depends on the extent of the addiction and whether your life has truly become unmanageable as a result.  The primary issue is uncontrollable acting out and therefore the focus is on “sur merah”.  However if the addiction has not progressed to the point of impacting your life to this degree, or (and this is an important “or”) if you’ve recovered sufficiently so that your life is no longer unmanageable, then the focus must be on “aseh tov” – ie. filling the void that used to be filled with lust.  And that’s where going to R’ Tzvi Meir (I have never gone nor read or heard any shmuzzen although I’d love to so please let me know if there’s any way to get them) can be 100 times better (again, Boruch, I’m talking about people who don’t need the 12 steps so please overlook the implied comparison to something I don’t know directly).  In my experience, being chained to lust meant that I was deprived of a connection and true appreciation of the magnificent, positive and nurturing properties of Torah and Ruchniyus.  I could not fathom the feelings of purity, love, and yearning for Kedusha that are bringing me to tears as I write these words.  The feeling cannot be described adequately on paper…and the biggest chidush in my case is that at one point in my life, all emotion was absent and I would go about my daily activities by rote, without feeling, almost like my body was there but I was somewhere else (usually wherever the Y”H wanted me to be).  So this is literally something I was incapable of even dreaming about because I could not conceive of it.  This is brought about through active participation in davening and learning – my own version of R’ Tzvi Meir.  For me, this cannot be achieved without Torah and therefore cannot be realized through any 12 step meeting.

Ahron, thank you for your beautiful post.

When you wrote:




You are right that filling the void, once you are well on the road to recovery - like you are, can and should only be through Davening and learning (for a frum yid). However, like Boruch explained so well in reply #25 above, the 12-Steps are to pull someone up from being an animal to becoming a person. You can't work on Torah and teffilah if you're an animal. You can't even be Jewish if you are not a human. First become a mentch (which you are already Ahron!! :-) and then you can start to look how to fill the void by growing every day through Torah, teffilah, Mussar and Chassidus.

All R' Tvi Meir's schmuzen (Yiddish Hebrew and English) can be heard by calling
(02) [or 9722] 658-1000
His natural language is Yiddish, so if you understand Yiddish it's way better than the other languages.
R' Tvi Meir invests unfathomable efforts to try to be a "clean channel" so that when he speaks it can effect those listening. I believe that much of it is lost if you don't here him live. Every erev Shabbos he says a shmuess in kolel Ramah on Rechov beruchim #12 (at around 12:45) The erev shabbos shmuess can be heard real-time by calling the above number.

The "real thing" is to participate in Sholosh Seudos (which is in the T.T. Viznich  on rechov Chana)it goes on for very long so you have to free up the whole Motzei Shabbos. One time I came in after the shmues and I observed the early minyanim for Maariv (the people that are in a rush and don't have time to stay till the end) If most people would daven Maariv like that on Yom Kippur we would be much better off. (when I'm part of it I don't realize the contrast)

Rabeinu Guard, I must say that you have no idea what it's all about. Going to R' Tvi Meir is a complete way of life (for those that are serious) For example, once someone is ready for the next step, there's a whole chaburah system which can turn any serious person in to a Tzadik Gomur.  

I don't think it's for everyone. If for example someone is very arrogant, I don't know what will happen.
But for someone that is looking to grow, he can take you from the lowest of the low to the highest of the high. I don't know why you think I suggested R' Tvi Meir for hard-core addicts. It never would have occurred to me to do such a thing.