The struggle did exist before the internet, but it was more challenging to find. The fact that you are on a 256-day streak speaks volumes about your approach. I need to read that book.

Thanks for reaching out

story with the Bies Yisroel or Gur ZT’L. It was during the times that frum Yiden were fighting that the buses should have separate seating for men and ladies, and this Israeli member of parliament asked the Rabbi “ I don’t understand what’s wrong with you guys! We go swimming with women and nothing happens, and you guys can’t sit on a bus together without getting bad thoughts? What’s wrong with you! 
so the rabbi answered “you see these little Arab boys going around barefoot on the boiling asphalt and sand and nothing happens, your kids can’t do that, are you telling me that the Arab boy is more developed? Of course not! It’s just that he’s feet has such thick skin from walking on them so long and abusing them he doesnt feel anything anymore, 

While many may say all different opinions i think the word is not sheltered or unsheltered - As we all know people - men and women of all ages that have open internet and dont watch or find interest in anything inappropriate. Whereas, we know some people - maybe ourselves who grew up with no internet at all - and have long beards and look very holy - but we/they have a hidden secret of lust and craving for some glimpse of.... 
I think the answer is simple - Yes when someone grows up "sheltered" and exposes himself to porn and inappropriately dressed women - then when he tries to distain and refrain or even walk away the battle is harder and he will be triggered faster

But when someone grows up exposed to friends and family that are not dressed completely or have casual relationships with the opposite gender - then when he watches porn and then refrains he just reverts back to origional state of "window shopping porn"

So, although the first way is harder - it is undoutobly a better way to go for those that the system works for, and even for the ones like me or others that spent many years struggling and falling in all areas and today i had to use all my energy not to look outside a restaurant ... because i knew if i would look i would lose my train of thought and slip...still and all its better for the kedusha striver

We are all Jews.
And we will all be Jews when Mashiach comes....hopefully very soon.

I am not Yeshivish either.
I don't wear a Black hat, white shirt and black trousers.
Though I occasionally will go to a Hasidic minyan.

I, similar to @Hopeful2022, work and socialise in a way where women are present.

I actually have this to much lesser extent than when younger, because I now mostly work from home where I am alone.

I agree that things which trigger a man who would be hardly ever exposed to women, will not trigger me.
As @growup wrote...if you are used to walking on hot coals.....
...it is not really the sights which trigger one.
I am mostly numb to them.

But a key point is - when I do mix in public, it is the interaction with women, the emotional bonds, the shared laughter etc. 

That is far more dangerous for me...because it creates a sense of longing, and perhaps a sense of missing out...and that emotional void is an empty space ..... which once I get home might be filled by looking at the wrong images and acting out.

So we all have to win our own versions of this challenge.

Hopeful2022 wrote on 23 Aug 2022 11:12:

You make a solid point.

My opinion is, indeed when it comes to someone struggling and falling, it is probably easier if they didn't grow up in a closed environment.

However, for the people who aren't struggling and falling (just the regular struggle that ever man has), for them it's better that they are in a closed environment simply based on the spiritual aspect of Shmiras Einayim and Shmiras Hamachshava.

I do believe that the best way according the our traditions and Torah is to keep as much sheltered as possible. 
of course that could create problems when kids grow up  and are exposed, but usually, if someone has a good and loving relationship with his family and good friends, he will be able to withstand that which he finds very strange to him. On the other hand if you grew up someone else it wouldn’t be such a stretch to do some things a little farther that what he saw in a regular basis.
However, I’m afraid that in the frum community, boys can grow up and have more SSA issues then in other not so sheltered places. That is, because as teenagers start maturing their sexual desire have nowhere else to go but on boys, I’ve seen this issue many times. I’m not sure how much better it’s anywhere else but I think it is better.
Mr Modern Orthodox, I would love to hear your insight regarding this point.

thank you

I can’t speak for the highly insulated communities but I have heard from roshei Yeshiva that they are having less issues with ssa then they used to (due to the unfortunate fact that a large percentage of the boys are exposed to other stuff that is so readily available)

Even in the most insulated communities some type of non shame based sex education is crucial (in addition to a loving parental connection)

chancy wrote:

Create problems, more than following the opposite model (of the secular)?

chancy wrote:


Please do some research before throwing out statistics, even if your reasoning has some sense to it.

Forgive me, but the post could be written in a more positive realistic way…

For mature adults potentially there is less sensitivity. However, as documented on the forum here anecdotally multiple times the Modern Orthodox approach for impressionable teens in a co-ed setting I think clearly has much greater pitfalls.

Intuitively I would have thought the opposite of what Vehkam is saying. I would think exposure to shmutz plus lack of outlets equals SSA particularly in a daily mikve setting.

I would to love be proven wrong about the SSA. 
ive learned in many yeshives all over the globe and this is what ive seen. 
No exposure to girls, plus being locked in yeshiva for years without many kosher outlets, plus going to the mikva could create a lot of SSA issues.
If you know otherwise, please share.

Kavey wrote on 30 Aug 2022 19:57:

My experience is with yeshivish places not the  chassideshe daily mikve places.  

chancy and Vehkam I hear

Hopeful2022 wrote on 23 Aug 2022 11:12:

Welcome!
I may come across sharp but understand that in no way is it meant to be directed at you.

First off, I don’t think it’s true that “frum people” are less exposed to women when they enter the workforce.
As children however, it is true that the “frum” are more sheltered.

I have 2 answers to your question.
#1: Having grown up modox I can tell you that being more exposed to girls doesn’t make guys watch less porn.
What it Does do is it makes them feel like it’s much less of a big deal than a “frum person” would think.
For that reason you’ll have “frum people” talking about triggers etc etc whereas for a modox guy it’s just a regular part of life, no big deal to chill out to some porn.

I argue that the “frum person” is in a much better place both spiritually and emotionally (assuming he’s being guided by competent and psychologically informed individuals. 

#2: We must understand why porn is a problem.
Many answers are given, some resonating with more with others.
Personally, the affect it can have on a marriage resonates with me far more than the halachik issue.

One basic reason though is because it is against the Will of GD.
We can discuss why, but first let’s understand the What.
Now, mixing of the sexes unnecessarily, which means not for the purpose of marriage. Platonic relationships etc, are forbidden by GD.
Seeing certain parts of the female (and male) body are forbidden by GD.
Again we can debate Why but this is the What.

Both things are forbidden.
The argument to permit something which is forbidden (I.e more mixing of the sexes etc) in order to allegedly make it easier to not watch porn (forbidden as well) seems quite silly.

Feel free to respond. I appreciate your genuine question and anticipate hearing your comments, thoughts, and critiques.

YeshivaGuy

First off. Thank you for the thoughtful and well-put-together reply. If I could use your numbering system to reply to each point.

1. Like almost anything growing up, you want it if you can't have it. That is how it was with porn and many things with me. It was not easily assessable back then, which is a major issue for me. Porn is at our fingertips 24/7 today if we choose to look. While some people would "chill out to some porn." for me, it was that porn wasn't a big deal and not something I gave much thought to.

2. I am with you 100% on its effects on marriage. That is more the reason that I am here than the halachic reason. It can be devastating for a marriage. I also think that the advances in technology are the main causes of trouble in this department. An entire world of porn lives in our pockets and homes every day.  Even if we forget what we see walking the streets or out in public, the minute the Yetzer sees an opening, he attacks, and with a smartphone or a computer almost in every pocket and home, it is very difficult to resist.

The rest of your comment about the mixing of the sexes, seeing certain parts of a woman's body, etc. are all religion driven and it is up to the individual to determine the value of those. I do have platonic relationships with some women, but I totally respect people that take a more stringent view of the subject. Having said that, I stand by the "Forbidden Fruit" theory.  If you are told that you "can't do something" it is human nature to wonder what that is and why can't I have it? 

My few platonic relationships with women are not triggers for me, while seeing a revealing ad on the subway may be triggering. I am not in any way saying that because I have women friends that makes porn ok. Actually the opposite. I feel that not being triggered by being around women lessens the desire to act out with porn and makes it somewhat easier to remain clean. That is just my personal experience. 

I can back that up with the way I treated alcohol with my children. It was not locked up and hidden from them. If they wanted to try alcohol then I let them try it. They did try it and it never became a big deal to them. I know many of my friends children that got into much trouble with alcohol, because it was "banned" in their homes, which just increased their desire to find out what they were missing.

I would like to close by saying that I apologize for the use of the word "frum". That was a poor choice of words. I could and should have done better.

Thanks again for the reply 

The SSA issue is a tough one for me. I never had it, and I can't imagine if I lived and went to a Yeshiva, that would change. I don't think that SSA is a learned issue. I feel people are born with it just the same as certain people like certain types of food. It is just something in their DNA. I can't explain it beyond that.

I think that the availability of porn is the biggest cause of P+M in society. Teenage boys have youthful urges and only have to pull out their smartphones to take care of them. A lot of research states that young people have much less actual sex than in previous generations due to the availability and wide-ranging types of porn. They can satisfy their desires without all the other stuff that goes along with a relationship.

Some thoughts that came up for me reading this thread:

1) there are stories in the big book of AA about people who grew up with no access to alcohol and zero drinking in their surroundings, as well as people who grew up with alcohol all over the house and the ability to drink whenever they felt like it. 

2) I wonder if anyone would accept the following logic; "seeing naked bodies drives me mad because I never had that around when I grew up, therefore I decided to have my home look like a nudist colony so my kids grow up immune to nudity".