i-man wrote on 20 Mar 2018 04:01:

If all else has failed, then 100% go to SA, but you have to know what dangers to watch out for so you can protect yourself.  Use SA to get the foundation to become a real Yid, and then use Yiddishkeit to take you to places that SA could never take you to in a million years!

ieeyc wrote on 19 Mar 2018 07:24:

again id like to take the time to thank you again ,for posting some personal experience on what goes on (or could go on )in sa ,cant believe anyone who really needs it would be deterred by this post,but at least when made aware of the danger he will not be  easy prey in such a  delicate emotional  position

Btw, there has been lots of chatter regarding PA. I believe there are several in Israel and one or two on the east coast.

I haven't figured out their mission statement yet, but it is founded by Jews (if you're into that) and they don't meet in churches (if you're not into that).

There are probably other excuses why not to join; I'm just sayin'.

God speed to all!

i would like to just say something ,i hope no one gets offended,ive heard the pros and cons of sa, and little me hears both sides and both sides are pretty necassary.
i think its obvious  the pro side ,when one hears whats Rachmana litzlan going on in the world regarding zenus ,its not plain old mast*rbat*on(i hope every knows what i  mean astrik permitting and all)were talking  about terrible self harm beside the aveira aspect,molestation ,suicide from selfloathing breaking up of families , etc .etc. and sa has helped many,
then there is the con side which i wont mention again since i mentioned here the necessaty of working my programs post, (thank you again for opening our eyes to  the dangers  that many  are unaware of )
theres s/t that bothers me and that is the using of Rabbonim to boost your point .
ive seen statements and things here that im not so sure the Rabbonim would approve of (of course nothing pornagraphic)whether its statements of lack of filters,"doesnt help me anyway...(did you ask a Rov about that sevara) and other things dont want to elabarate,ive stepped on enough toes,now im not talking about s/o who is consumed with lust and doesnt listen to Rabbanim,he is under the influence of temparary insanity ,so im not talking about that , im talking about the parve stuff when we know were not following the guidelines of the Rabbonim  who we quote to support our posts . 
anyway thanks for listening.

again, i dont know anything about sa personally. everything im saying is from what people tell me. that said, what needs to be exlained is, why are so many people sold to it? im sure all of you reading this are thinking "the answer is obvious, because it works".
so im just gonna explain what it works for (again, not from experience of my own, but quoting many people who do have experience).
one of the the things i hear most from sa people is, "my life was unmanagable and sa made it managable". it seems like the point of sa is to restore your life to being managable and hopefully minimize the pain and suffering that comes along with being an addict. like with alchohol, the act of drinking is fine, but if it is ruining your life it isnt. what this gives over is that if doing the act as many times as you do it wouldnt pain you and make your life unmanagable, it is ok. along with that comes the idea that you are ill and not doing anything wrong you just have to heal yourself and bring your life back to normal, so if you slip up once in a while you did nothing wrong. as long as you get right back up and forget about the past.
this is very liberating and is the reason why people are sold to it. it makes them feel good and can save them from the chain reaction of i fell so what was my trying worth.
this is against yiddishe hashkafa. sheva yipol tzaddik vikam does not mean that what you did was ok. it was not ok and what you did was wrong. it was purely from the yetzer hora. and although you get up and move on, it does not mean you should minimize the chomer of the aveirah. you still must do teshuvah. its for hashem to decide if you deserve an onesh or not and if it was really an oneis.
what can end up happening is that once the mind thinks that its not an aveirah, just an illness, he may end up using it as an excuse conciously or subconciously and act out when he otherwise would not have, and this i know for a fact from more than one person.
for a goy this is perfectly fine but for a jew it isnt.
there are exceptions. im not a posek but some examples may be, someone who is helpless and will for sure do worse things otherwise, or is either a risk to others or pikuach nefesh or knows for a fact that this wont harm him. never can a person make this judgment on his own without the psak of a real daas torah. what ive heard over so many times is that whether or not you are a real addict, in sa there is a pressure to "confess" and admit that you are an addict. this can be dangerous.
so yes, most who join can end up feeling great, but although it can be very helpful for many, that feeling can also be destructive to others. so before joining you must consult a daas torah. and of course keep in mind the risks so as only to take out the helpful and haskafikally and halachically correct parts.
as far as dong it in a church can be a big shailah in halacha and a rov must be consulted. 

hashiveinu wrote on 22 Mar 2018 22:31:

Thank you for this, although it's wrong. The experts in SA are very clear and it is in all the books that those who are in SA and those who are addicted, one drink of alcohol, or one bout of lust, is a killer for us, for our lives are not manageable and we cannot drink like normal humans. That is why they are so key on a sobriety date. As a matter of fact, there is another school, and this is from the frume group who say that lust is God-given and should not be abolished. It is wrong (they say) of SA to say that it cannot be tolerated at all, but rather, one should learn how to live together with lust. This is called "victory over" instead of "free from."

God speed to the truth and towards recovery! Amen!

cordnoy wrote on 22 Mar 2018 23:08:

i agree that i know very little about sa and i am open to hear all opinions of it. but i think you misunderstood me. what you wrote is exactly my point. it is only a problem "for us" and only because "our lives are not managable". meaning that the act isnt the problem rather what it does to us and how it affects our lives. the problem is how we do it not what we do. the facts are that many people are "working" on recovery but are not actually recovered and are not guaranteed to be recovered so they are not holding by stopping cold turkey. its the mindset that sa gives which can harm them. not the rules.
about the "frume group", i am not familiar with it but it sounds like utter nonsense to me and i cant imagine any rabbi backing such a mehalech.
because im explaining the con, i feel like im coming across as anti sa. i am not at all anti and dont have a right to such an opinion. i can only say that its for sure not for everyone and a daas torah must always be consulted. it is the rabbanim and talmidei chachamim who are the einei haeida, and they are given a special siyata dishmaya to guide us in the way hashem wants us to go. the therapists and the methods given to us from the "world" are tools to be used, but with the guidance of daas torah.

Hashivenu
I don't like long posts, so forgive me for not quoting yours

It has nothing to do with dangers of SA. There are 1001 excuses to act out

Sorry, I'm all spent to continue .... For now.

By the way, daas Torah has already weighed in.

B'hatzlachah

It was a reply to your 2nd last post that addicts feel free to break fences, and it's not considered a sin, which I don't know where you get that from. Yes they have a stronger "Yetzer"... Either way philosophizing belongs elsewhere...

I had started writing the reply earlier, but then my therapist interrupted for her session...

hashiveinu wrote on 18 Jan 1970 14:42:

i havent gone  to sa yet but when i was in fall mode  of mb and was very into reading articles here i have had this thought that its an illness and its not (such)an aveira, its an illness.although now in getting up mode BH  i dont see it as an illness but as a nisayon. i hope this contributes to the discussion,i think it had shaychus.

while im on this post id like to ask a question that mentioned by cordnoy ,and that is, fromwhat i understand that the Torah hashkafa  is , everything in a man is good in the right time even the things that we look as to be negative like anger , against reshaim it should be used ,to do justice , amalek etc. it just depends how its used , even kindness if its used in the wrong way  is badit all depends how its used .now i would like to ask what about lust,its something in a man ,in the right time ,with both partners(husband and wife that is )happily consenting, and no cajoling involved ,G-D forbid,lust is a holy thing (needless to say along the guidelines of the halacha),and what Hashem wants , its only  unwed people who do the same exact thing ,which is hateful to Hashem.
now where does that leave people with sa,they have to live with their spouses, so is the act done,or must be done,without lust?which leads me to my next question , since no one put up a thread  on definition of words yet,what does lust mean exactly?i would really like to have a definition of marriage without lust (is there lust if both partners are giving to each other and trying to make the other partner happy)because it seems to me that its mentioned alot on this forum  of how lust is poisen to an addict. 

just one more point we want to eat Matzah biteavon with appetite, and a mitzva s achila thats done with appetite is HIDUR MITZVA the mefarshim say (maybe  Rashi?) does the same thing apply to the mitzva  of being together with a wife, is it  included in this rule?
thank you in advance for your answer(s)

ieeyc we need to learn boundaries

You're asking great questions - and they are!

Please post them on your personal thread

Mikestruggling won't complain, but each member has a thread and it unravels when hijacked.

Of course things can go off topic for a while, but de-threading mikes bottle strings isn't good for him

Wow, even the title of this thread has been hijacked now!

ieeyc wrote on 23 Mar 2018 03:05:

Markz wrote on 23 Mar 2018 03:57:

sorry but there aint no mikestruggling at this address, so chevra im waiting for your answers