The reality is that many people in program lower their Yiddishkeit.

before starting 12 steps my yiddishkiet was anyway out the window, so it's not like 12 steps would in any way get in the way of my yiddishkiet

YidFromMonsey wrote on 27 Nov 2016 01:06:

I agree that pikuach nefesh is a big factor.

The purpose of the 12 steps is to establish conscious contact with G-d. Listening to G-d may have gone out the window during active addiction, but turning our wills and lives over to G-d's care is part of recovery. Maybe not over-night, it might take patience and work. It's difficult to turn my life over to the care of G-d while deliberately ignoring what He says in His book. Falling short is one thing, but stomping all over it is another. The steps are about living life on life's (G-d's) terms.

"Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to G-d and the people about us."

How do you see it?

BTW, there's nothing wrong with putting G-d on your 4th step.

YidFromMonsey wrote on 27 Nov 2016 01:06:

I agree that pikuach nefesh is a big factor.

The purpose of the 12 steps is to establish conscious contact with G-d. Listening to G-d may have gone out the window during active addiction, but turning our wills and lives over to G-d's care is part of recovery. Maybe not over-night, it might take patience and work. It's difficult to turn my life over to the care of G-d while deliberately ignoring what He says in His book. Falling short is one thing, but stomping all over it is another. The steps are about living life on life's (G-d's) terms.

"Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to G-d and the people about us."

How do you see it?

BTW, there's nothing wrong with putting G-d on your 4th step.

YidFromMonsey wrote on 27 Nov 2016 07:08:

There are many articles on this site about this.

AdditionallyI, rabbi tanenbaum published a pamphlet (and perhaps now it's a book) on this very subject. On my thread tryin', we have many excerpts and discussions.

cordnoy wrote on 24 Nov 2016 16:19:

I kind of get the feeling that a lot of the "prayers" and "quote" and "sayings" in the big book and other aa/sa literature comes from christian teachings. Just a feeling. 

The steps are not a religion, not an "Ol" and clearly cannot work at all w/that attitude! Sure, it is uncomfortable to face the truth and may be hard to finally do what needs to be done, but it is never complicated.

My sponsor told me that if I'm working the program but still unhappy, I am probably not working it right! My Higher Power should actually be doing most of the actual work! My responsibility (to myself) is to simply work the steps in order to become willing to let Him remove my kin'ah, ta'ava, and kavod that lead me to alleh mishigassim and make life miserable. On the other hand, what a privelege it is to be sober even when the chips are down and I am feeling sad for some reason!

PS. For those interested in traditional AA stuff w/this approach, you may like the six CD series (or lttle AA book based on them), "A New Pair of Glasses" by Chuck C, an AA "elder". He was about 75 years old when he gave the original weekend series. Chuck clearly and repeatedly demonstrates through sharing his experience - not lecturing - principles like: admitting what my problem really is; knowing(not just having emunah - see RMBM) that G-d really is in charge of outcomes and learning what it means to actually live that way; understanding and accepting that G-d is truly and completely on our side unconditionally and forever; not taking myself too seriously and why humility makes self-pity very difficult; making peace w/the yesod that the whole point of life is: what I give and not what I get out of it; and other stuff basic to recovery. I cannot approach these yesodos as mitzvos/obligations at all, but as derech eretz: simple, enlightened self-interest. They are not madregahs for an addict, rather, they are a recovering addict's oxygen, the bottom line minimal requirments for functioning, as he explains. Living w/them makes staying sober possible. He has no religious agenda and, in fact, clarifies a difference between religion and the steps that I find helpful. Though he (annoyingly) mentions christian verses two or three times (having been raised that way), another frum guy has told me that the religious ideas he expresses there are apparently based on Torah. I skip that stuff because it doesn't feel right anyway..boundaries are a good thing...yeah, I know some people may take issue with me about this whole suggestion, but it helped me so I'm passing it along and sincerely hope no one is offended.

PS. For me, the ikkar of Torah and mitzvos come after the steps. In asimilar way, my wife has told me that she considers the day I got sober the best day in our lives, much better than our chasunah day, and the new start of our marriage. I myself, changed my name from a choser to a moleh spelling since starting to recover b'Eezras Hashem. Yes, a yid must try to be moser nefesh to do the Torah and mitzvos while he is still very, very ill. But once we are no longer regularly and naturally doing things that endanger his life, are chayav misah bidei shamayim, Kareis, are just plain nuts, etc., it seems to me that our responsibility - rather, ability - to keep the mitzvos is elevated because we are more awake. We probably never fully awaken, except for tzaddikim...
Similar to the RMB'Ns BAD WORD REMOVEDtah regarding mitzvos in Chutz La'aretz. They of course apply there and are precious (and in some specific respects may be the most precious), but the ikkar kiyum of mitzvos is in Eretz Yisrael, he holds.
May Hashem help us care more about doing His will than ours and accept living His will with a whole heart!

PPS. BTW, Yes, Yiddishkeit Is an "Ol", yoke. But remember, Hashem healed all of us completely before he gave us the Torah. He then put the mountain over us to send the message that it is an "Ol" that needs to be accepted. It was important that we were no longer "sick" at the time of taking on such a responsibility.

I'm wondering, does anyone know of any posek or torah authority who looked into addiction and or the 12 steps from a torah perspective? If so, what's his opinion? 

The phrase 'your Go-d/my Go-d' sound like 'your Getshka my Getshka', my god is like this and yours like that.

Eyeglasses wrote:

Eg I do not profess to know you, but I wanted to comment on the comment

I listened to the shocking / heartbreaking speech about Married adults "Diving off the Derech" leaving their families behind which was spoken about at the latest Agudas Yisrael convention - you can easily find that specific lecture on Torahanytime.com

I know firsthand of such a case where the wife is going OTD leaving her family behind r"l

One of the things Reb Shaya Cohn mentioned at the convention was that many of these adults even if leading a "kollel life", yet they lack a REAL relationship with Hashem

A comment like the one you wrote (at least superficially) borders on heresy.
I don't care how much a person learns and observes with all chumros in the world. If there's no relationship with Gd his yiddishkeit is seriously at risk

But hey I was there not too long ago, so no worries, you can BreakFree too.
I was a regular FFB but had no drive for 'my religion' even if externaly I was going thru all the motions
Then I discovered Yiddishkeit thanks to a world renowned speaker and my outlook changed

Did that stop me from porn? No

I have a big hunch that there's many many good Jews out there who unfortunately don't have that relationship. Then they discover SA meetings and Gd

All their years in yeshiva they never heard about Hashem, and now they finally discovered him. But not from a Rebbi of theirs rather from another faith.

Can it happen that their religious observance which was a matter of rote, deminishes? And is replaced with a new mindset which enhances personal relationships, kicks lust in the butt, but he's learning less than before?

I would understand that

Is there something he should do about that? Probably

If there's a choice between
1) No relationship with Gd, lots of lust, lots of dapim Gemara
2) SA, Real Relationship with Gd (Jewish one of course), less lust, less Gemara or Minyan attendance

I recommend the 2nd. Because I feel such a person is a more stable Person / Jew
Later he will upgrade hopefully upgrade his observance 

my 2 cents - sorry for spouting too much and I hope I didn't offend anyone

Eyeglasses wrote:

Eg I do not profess to know you, but I wanted to comment on the comment

I listened to the shocking / heartbreaking speech about Married adults "Diving off the Derech" leaving their families behind which was spoken about at the latest Agudas Yisrael convention - you can easily find that specific lecture on Torahanytime.com

I know firsthand of such a case where the wife is going OTD leaving her family behind r"l

One of the things Reb Shaya Cohn mentioned at the convention was that many of these adults even if leading a "kollel life", yet they lack a REAL relationship with Hashem

A comment like the one you wrote (at least superficially) borders on heresy.
I don't care how much a person learns and observes with all chumros in the world. If there's no relationship with Gd his yiddishkeit is seriously at risk

But hey I was there not too long ago, so no worries, you can BreakFree too.
I was a regular FFB but had no drive for 'my religion' even if externaly I was going thru all the motions
Then I discovered Yiddishkeit thanks to a world renowned speaker and my outlook changed

Did that stop me from porn? No

I have a big hunch that there's many many good Jews out there who unfortunately don't have that relationship. Then they discover SA meetings and Gd

All their years in yeshiva they never heard about Hashem, and now they finally discovered him. But not from a Rebbi of theirs rather from another faith.

Can it happen that their religious observance which was a matter of rote, deminishes? And is replaced with a new mindset which enhances personal relationships, kicks lust in the butt, but he's learning less than before?

I would understand that

Is there something he should do about that? Probably

If there's a choice between
1) No relationship with Gd, lots of lust, lots of dapim Gemara
2) SA, Real Relationship with Gd (Jewish one of course), less lust, less Gemara or Minyan attendance

I recommend the 2nd. Because I feel such a person is a more stable Person / Jew
Later he will upgrade hopefully upgrade his observance 

my 2 cents - sorry for spouting too much and I hope I didn't offend anyone

Eyeglasses wrote:

Eg I do not profess to know you, but I wanted to comment on the comment

I listened to the shocking / heartbreaking speech about Married adults "Diving off the Derech" leaving their families behind which was spoken about at the latest Agudas Yisrael convention - you can easily find that specific lecture on Torahanytime.com

I know firsthand of such a case where the wife is going OTD leaving her family behind r"l

One of the things Reb Shaya Cohn mentioned at the convention was that many of these adults even if leading a "kollel life", yet they lack a REAL relationship with Hashem

A comment like the one you wrote (at least superficially) borders on heresy.
I don't care how much a person learns and observes with all chumros in the world. If there's no relationship with Gd his yiddishkeit is seriously at risk

But hey I was there not too long ago, so no worries, you can BreakFree too.
I was a regular FFB but had no drive for 'my religion' even if externaly I was going thru all the motions
Then I discovered Yiddishkeit thanks to a world renowned speaker and my outlook changed

Did that stop me from porn? No

I have a big hunch that there's many many good Jews out there who unfortunately don't have that relationship. Then they discover SA meetings and Gd

All their years in yeshiva they never heard about Hashem, and now they finally discovered him. But not from a Rebbi of theirs rather from another faith.

Can it happen that their religious observance which was a matter of rote, deminishes? And is replaced with a new mindset which enhances personal relationships, kicks lust in the butt, but he's learning less than before?

I would understand that

Is there something he should do about that? Probably

If there's a choice between
1) No relationship with Gd, lots of lust, lots of dapim Gemara
2) SA, Real Relationship with Gd (Jewish one of course), less lust, less Gemara or Minyan attendance

I would think the 2nd is preferred.  of course by sageous advice of your LOR. Because I feel such a person is a more stable Person / Jew
Later he will upgrade hopefully upgrade his observance. 

my 2 cents - sorry for spouting too much and I hope I didn't offend anyone

Markz wrote on 28 Nov 2016 14:29:

That is exactly what I was trying to explain.