After reading rabbi tanenbaums essay on the 12 steps and posting extensively about it (I think on the tryin' thread), I do think that most of SA and the 12 steps are within the framework of our hashkafah. However, I do think that there are groups, specifically on the east coast, and individuals, who warp the concepts and take it to an extreme, in such a way that recovery trumps frumkeit, and many take a slide or a plunge while and after they are recovering, and it is truly sad, for I do not think that it needs to be that way.

אפשר לקיים שניהם

cordnoy wrote on 24 Nov 2016 16:19:

I kind of get the feeling that a lot of the "prayers" and "quote" and "sayings" in the big book and other aa/sa literature comes from christian teachings. Just a feeling. 

Workingguy wrote on 24 Nov 2016 15:16:

Totally agree 

Shlomo24 wrote on 24 Nov 2016 15:49:

Do you mean to say that you would become a christian if that was the only way you could recover??

As Frum Yidden, we must make it clear. There may be more than one understanding, but there is only one God. And we should be using the Steps to enhance our Yiddishkeit, not to replace it. 

shneurzalman404 wrote:

Maybe this is also a Cristian idea

Do we realize how much Cristian dogma we absorb unconciously?

See especially Shemos Perek 21 pasuk 21, and according to Jewish tradition there's no such thing as Perek 21 pasuk 21

I believe Shlomos understanding could still be understood in a way that conforms with Jewish belief

I repeat what I said above, I personally don't like this conversation here on this forum

I never said that. But I know someone who might join the church and he grew up frum. I can't say I would or wouldn't because it never happened. And yes, many of the prayers have Christian origins. So what? One doesn't need to say them. Like Cordnoy said, אפשר לקיים שניהם. I know many people who did that also. A bunch of them also had to go through a long process to get there. As of me? I find that there is spirituality in Yiddishkeit but I also had very negative experiences with it. Under my Sponsor's guidance I am not working on that right now. You can read what Dov wrote about the topic. I have spoken to him personally about that and I really relate to the essay. Honestly, it bothers me that people get turned off by 12 step because of the Christian influences. As if getting drunk or high constantly or watching porn all day fits with the Torah. For recovery suddenly religion is a big issue, but for addiction it's not. Rabbi Twersky has BOOKS about how the steps fit in with Yiddishkeit, he sure as hell knows a lot more than me. Probably more than most people. But as it says, this disease is cunning, baffling, and powerful.

Markz wrote on 24 Nov 2016 17:05:

So, don't read it.

I think it's a travesty that people join groups to recover and become less frum.

Welcome to
THE G
OF MY
UNDERSTANDING

Shlomo24 wrote on 24 Nov 2016 17:05:

It's really a silly question. In the addiction, religion doesn't play a roll? Someone's addicted or has bad habits, and he knows it's against religion, but he does it anyway. Our life is like that. So, therefore, in recovery, he should also forget religion!?

That makes no sense.

Shlomo,

i'm not at all talking about the fact that the original AA groups were started by Christians and modeled very much after Christian concepts. I agree with cords that there is a way to work them both out, and I did when I was a part of it. What I am saying, and you seemed to indicate otherwise, is that I wouldn't change religions or take ideas and conceptions of God that are not compatible with my religion in order to recover. Because ultimately, even taking into account what Dov says about being a human being first, a Jew has no option but to be a Jew and to follow HaShem. You can't heal yourself from Avoda Zara or Atzei Asheira even if you're going to die. 

Somehow, in some SA groups that have religious Jews in them, there seems to be a misconception that recovery is primary before everything including Yiddishkeit. Heaven forbid. 

And Markz, you're right that this isn't the most warm and fuzzy conversation but it is a conversation, and I think that it is important for religious Jews to make clear their priorities. There is no denying that while this site is open to everybody and doesn't tell you what to do, the basic angle that we are coming up this is from a religious Jewish perspective. 

cordnoy wrote on 24 Nov 2016 17:13:

I understand that you believe what I said makes no sense, but I've heard very similar things to what I just said from people much wiser and with much more sobriety than myself, (Harvey and Dov).

As an addict, my life is on the line. Yes, I understand that one can't join Christianity if faced with death, but that's not even the issue! It's not Christian! If one trusts Rabbi Twersky or Rav Shais Taub, or if one trusts many other Rabbanim that support 12-step, then there isn't an issue. But yet people won't potentially save their own lives because of religious issues.

There are many who struggle with the minyan vs meeting, or chavrusah vs meeting. A sponsor is not a posek. Yes, one did not ask his LOR his opinion before entering a strip club, but if He is a God-fearing Jew, it is his obligation to ask a shaila. (Oh, but he doesn't want the rav to know. Oh, then it's ok to just trust your sponsor.)

cordnoy wrote on 24 Nov 2016 18:48:

I did not take that personally, but I would like to relay my experience. I have spoken with my Rebbeim and they said I'm doing the right thing.

There are many who get so into spirituality that they forgot about religion. And you know what? As a Jewish person, that's sad. But I completely understand them and empathize with them.

My original qualm was simply because WG spoke in general terms for others, not for himself. My main point was that I know others that wouldn't agree with what he said. That's all.