I like that one, Mark. 

stillgoing wrote on 06 May 2016 07:28:

The spark must come from within

reallygettingthere wrote on 02 Jan 2015 21:35:

Spinning...



Video 01: Are you a Spinner or a Sailor?

Duvid Chaim: The reason I am dedicating time to share with the Chevra - Lessons by the World’s leading Motivational Teachers is that I have observed how the percentage of Men and Women who enter the 12 Step Program and actually Recover and attain Sobriety is relatively small. So it’s begs the question, why? What is the barrier that seems to keep us back in the dark, in the old patterns of thinking and therefore we continue to Act and Act Out like always? From my research, I have found that the answer lies in a man’s motivation to change is the key to igniting in him the Willingness to take the actual Steps to Change!

Markz wrote on 14 Feb 2017 17:30:

WG ain't going to like that...

Shlomo24 wrote on 14 Feb 2017 18:44:

Depends how you're reading it but I don't have a problem with it either way. If you're reading it that most people don't go to 12 steps because they're not motivated, I don't have a problem with that.

But I'm reading it that he's saying that a lot of people DO go and still don't succeed and that I TOTALLY agree with.

I think with the proper motivation, the modality almost doesn't matter. 

Workingguy wrote on 15 Feb 2017 00:15:

I read it as "The people who don't succeed in SA lack willingness. If they would be willing they would be successful."

You can lead the addict to SA, you can't get him to drink (recovery, not lust)
Perhaps he'll drink lust.

BEAUTIFUL, GUYS! ALL OF YOU! I LOVE THE SPINNING ALLEGORY! I LOVE THE COMIC! GYE can be condensed into these few posts.

I think the percentage of people recovering in SA is low. But that's not because the program doesn't work, it's because most people don't do what the program suggests.

I've been in SA for a few years and seen a lot of people come and go. None of the people who left had completed the steps. In fact most hadn't even started their 4th step.

2 exceptions from my home town:
1) A guy who worked the steps, got 5 years sober, something happened (not quite sure what) and now he's back out there.
2) A guy who worked the steps, got 3 years sober, then slowly stopped working the steps, stopped sponsoring others, going to meetings or taking inventory, and relapsed after about 6 months of this. He's still in the rooms though.

At a recent SA convention, the vast majority of the hundreds of people there were sober. Of course, the kind of guy who's prepared to travel to such a convention clearly works a program, so it's no surprise that he's sober.

I also think that the stats for Jewish SAs are worse because a lot of people go because they're disturbed by the terrible aveirah, but their lives are not unmanageable. So of course they don't "seize the program as a drowning man grabs a life preserver," they don't feel that their lives depend on it. It's a lot of work to do when you're not 100% certain you need it.

Shlomo24 wrote on 15 Feb 2017 03:22:


I totally agree with that. But I believe it about many other methods too- if you're willing, all sorts of things can work.

Ok, gotcha. For some reason I had chalked you up as the "Anti - SA guy."

I've written many times that I don't think that SA is the end all and that I didn't like a lot of it.

But I probably didn't explain my positive feelings about it enough so I should be clear.

The honesty, personal growth not even relating to sexual struggles, humility, and level of service to your fellow struggler is unusual. I think it's almost like it's an amazing mussar program.

For some people I think it's detrimental if it's their sexual recovery tool- the powerlessness piece feeds a lot of people's problem but that's a long story- but for those who connect to it and are willing, I DO think that combining the personal growth and honesty together with working hard on sobriety is pretty cool.

Hi WG!

That is a great point you are bringing to light, thank you.

So that I understand you better, can you please post what you actually mean when you refer to 'the powerlessness piece'. Or more precisely, how did you perceive the guys who it was detrimental for, mean when they hear/say they are (or an addict is) powerless.

Thanks amigo!

Dov wrote on 15 Feb 2017 18:58:


Hi Dov,

It would be my pleasure; I just had a long post and somehow it got erased so I'll do it again.
Obviously, for many addicts there is an issue of tremendously low self-esteem and shame because of their problem. They feel broken, and they feel that there is something wrong with them that they struggle with this problem. Now, when you tell them that they just have to join 12 steps if they could admit powerlessness, what happens is that they perceive that as another attack on their ego. You mean I have this problem, and I can't control it? Now they know they can't control it, but when you tell them that they are powerless it increases their shame because now they feel that they are even more broken.

But then you tell them no don't worry about it, because God can take the problem away from you. But the thing is that when they hear that they think that that is impossible, because how can the same God who wanted to smite them for masturbating take away the problem and why would he even want to? Because they have so much religious shame associated with what they've done in the past, I don't even feel worthy to ask God to take it away or to believe that he would do it.

(On a similar note, it is worth checking out the Wikipedia entry for free will and looking at at the work of Roy Baumeister and the work he did in showing how much worse people's behavior is when they feel that they are not controlling their choices.)

Now perhaps you'll say that they are misunderstanding powerlessness, as you've explained many times on this website. That may all be true, but for where they are and amount of shame that they have, starting 12 steps and admitting their peril this is way too much of an attack on their ego.

Now obviously, the people who succeed with 12 steps were able to overcome it either because they understood it differently or for them, it was a relief. Many people give the example of addiction being like diabetes – you just have to deal with it and it's not something you should be ashamed of. But I thought you were interesting thing that I've seen amongst a lot of people and I have heard from a number of therapists-for some people, hearing they have diabetes which explains some elements of theirs is a relief, while for other people it's shameful. I'll just give a personal example – lately I've been very tired and so I went to the doctor and he told me that I might have a mild sleep issue. It's funny how much more tired and bogged down I felt after he told me that. It's not like I didn't know how tired I was, but now it's like he sort of labeled me. Why should that matter and why should I be ashamed of that? The answer is a long one but the point is that that's what happens to a lot of people.

This is how I understand it from a lot of literature that I read, and also from a lot of people whom I've spoken to who didn't succeed.

I'd venture that many people would probably be able to change that attitude after they spent some time in therapy and worked on their own self, in which case they might not view it as such a threat. I know that when I started going to therapy there was no way I was going to go to 12 steps, but after some time in therapy and learning to accept myself a little more I was like heck yeah, let's give it a try.