Funny, but this thread on SSA (g*y issues) seems to have faltered on a very uneven note.  I think there are probably many men lurking on the edge of this forum (many of us started here as lurkers) who struggle with either a desire, a history, or even (Ch'V) a current practice that involves other men.  I'm hoping we can yank the thread back to an active direction.

I don't know what proportion of the folks here (non-SSA as well as SSA inclined) would benefit from the chizuk, the insights, or the questions that more dialogue could bring.  I'll bet there's "someone" out there, though, for whom an ability to discuss/vent these SSA issues could be life-changing.  Even life-saving.

And to those who might think the topic is too far removed from a porn addict's 12-step program and the rest of the central focus here, I'll argue that it's all really the same thing.  It's about having put too much effort (kochos) into a lust that's not bringing us the fulfillment we'd really want or the connection to Hashem's Torah that we'd really want, and that holds us back from what H' might have planned for us.  And where we can find 1700 other excuses and defenses to avoid giving it up.

In addition, I'm guessing that whatever brought ANY of us to the forum would be pretty much the same set of issues, regardless of gender orientation or other specifics.  (I might suggest, though, that being frum & gay might just makes it all that much trickier.)

I'd be willing to start with my own story, but I'm feeling a little tapped out after a couple of really heavy days of working things out & posting & making plans and kaballas and whatever.  Besides, if I'm correct that I'm not alone here, I'm sure someone will have the, er, fortitude to go first.

What's Your Line?

Question for all you ‘straight’ guys:
Could you please, please describe what you (personally) find so ‘yuk’ about same-sex attractions (SSA)?

In my few weeks around here, I’ve seen you describe all kinds of past behaviors. Typically, various ‘solo’ thoughts and acts, incl. lots of online behavior. Sometimes, acting out with others (phone, live, etc). All of it misdirected and self-destructive. But when the topic turns to similar thoughts or actions involving M-M activities, the conversation turns icy cold.  My question: why?

In PMs, Forum members have shared a special disdain for gays, in my view.  They say, Toeva hee (abomination; BTW, a hard act to accomplish solo). False “Pride” that should be shame, they say. (More shame than when straight guys act out?) Seeking acceptance and sympathy for sinfulness. (Perhaps better to seek rejection?) Wouldn’t invite one to my Shabbos table. Wouldn’t be welcomed at my shul. I could go on….

I’m not here to debate or defend (PM me for that). I’m posting this to UNDERSTAND. 

Bottom line: It seems SSA is a big deal to you somehow. I’d get great chizuk in hearing the views of a group that’s obviously “been there & bought the t-shirt” in sexual thoughts outside the mainstream.

So, help me out:  how was it that, in the past, you found M-M thinking so particularly negative & ‘yuk’ while finding M-F thinking so compelling?  B’kavod u’b’ahava, - Briut

One is Mutar one is Assur.

Our duty in this world is to do what Hashem would want us to do. Although some things are out of our control even though they may be against what Hashem wants from us, it is our duty to work on these issues. And I am not just talking about SSA and lust issues. These include Midos issues. If a person has a Ka'as problem, he cant just wake up the next day and not be angry anymore, he has to recognize his issue and work on it. For some people its a lifelong process. With SSA, I have to think it is not what Hashem wants from us. Without attacking you because I really dont know you or anyone here, to say that "this is the way God created me so it cant be bad" is like saying "God created me with Ka'as so I can continue to have it." With all of these, SSA, Ka'as, and yes lust, we need to recognize that we have to change for the better.

Make any sense?

-Yiddle

did i miss something?
did somebody actually say this - Yiddle2 wrote on 09 Feb 2010 14:39:
?

Briut

First of all I have know idea what you are talking about. I have not seen any disdain on this forum about SSA issues. That would be comparable to one roommate in a psycho ward telling a visitor that the other guy in the room is really crazy. This aside, the conservative / republican / religious right / traditional world has a special disdain for homosexual behaviors. I believe the attitude stems from the perception that porn is taking something which is essentially a good thing (a man desiring a woman) and taking it to an extreme. Candy is good, but not eating 10lbs. While likewise wrong it is understandable. Homosexuality has no "right" aspect to it. It's wrong in moderation and in all circumstances.

Now the intsinctive "yuk" reaction (which I repeat I have not seen expressed here) is because the overwhelming majority of the world is straight and the typical male locker room ole boy is homophobic does not understand homosexual urges and is uncomfortable with the guy across the room looking at him in a sexual way.

sturggle wrote on 09 Feb 2010 14:49:


That is why I said "Without attacking you because I really dont know you or anyone here" I specifically preceded your quote with this to make a point to say that I never saw it here! Briut was saying there's a general stigma out there in the world about SSA being 'yucky', I dont know if he was refering to GYE alone. And YES I HAVE HEARD PEOPLE SAY THIS, not on the forum.

Maybe this topic should be locked because alot gets taken out of context and can be misunderstood and people can get very heart regarding such a sorte topic...

Yiddle,
I think you make a good point.
I was under the impression that Briut was speaking strictly about the forum.
Briut? Can you clarify please?

Yiddle

I haven't seen anything getting out of control? You don't need to encourage the moderators to lock topics, trust me they're pretty good at doing it all by themselves

Yiddle2 wrote on 09 Feb 2010 14:27:


Both can be Assur, but it should not be surprising that relationships that are (viewed as) unnatural should be considered repulsive by a majority of people.  That doesn't mean there shouldn't be compassion for those who have this orientation through no fault of their own.

Sturggle:  to clarify. Yes, I think that SOMEWHAT on the forum itself, and even more on PMs, I've heard some comments that strike me as a little bit 'off.'

I'd rather save any interpretations examples etc for now, because I'd really really like to hear some add'l thoughts from add'l guys. I don't want to poison the well, or make anyone uncomfortable, by offering any gloss.  (I'll leave that to all of you -- you seem to be doing just fine. grin.)

Briut, let me understand you correctly -

you're wondering why porn addicts would find SSA (porn, for arguements sake) so much worse, as basis to be self-rightous.

Perhaps there is a rationale. But it's stupid.

SSA is a nisayon. As guard mentions in the FAQs, wanting a married woman is worse (this I base on the safek in rishonim if mishav zachar is yeharog v'al ya'avor).

A woman would find our nisayonos- to desperately desire to use a woman in a demeaning, dehumanizing way, disgusting.

Because we don't share the SSA tayvah, we think it's disgusting. It is.

Wanting to use another human being with any regard for - or feelings for them-  is disgusting. 
To destroy our capability to genuine connect to another human being is disgusting.
We just don't see it that way - because it's our flavor of nisayon.

We don't share your flavor of nisayon. Hence, the high horse.
But it's a trojan horse.

All depends what your poison is, R"L.

Let's grow together.
I remember one of the girls who was struggling with her own nisayon was "disgusted" by how us men described the role of femine beauty in their relationships. But it wasn't her nisayon.

kanesher wrote on 09 Feb 2010 16:24:


I was not aware of this safek.  What I do know is that Eishes Ish (other than an Arusah) is a Chiyuv Chenek, whereas Mishkav Zachor is a Chiyuv Skila.

Me3 wrote on 09 Feb 2010 16:02:


Is being misquoted not bad enough? I am not picking on whoever did it, I understand it was an honest mistake and no grudge is being held, but when such heated topics are discussed, it is not uncommon for someone with one view to do such a thing.

Kedusha wrote on 09 Feb 2010 16:06:


Nobody is going around saying that they lust for other woman. If someone did, he would instantly be viewed in a "perverted lens." People with SSA have a tendency to be more open about their homosexuality.

And Kedusha, compassion should come from the willingness and ratzon to change, not because they are different in certain aspects. I dont expect compassion for having lust addiction, but I expect people on the forum to have compassion that I want a change.