Cordnoy,

I got totally lost as U read on in the white book. Firstly, does there have to be an inhernet rebeelion as he claims and his story indicates on page 53? Like it can't just be that I love women so I got hooked on lust? Is the addiction only solvable if see a therpaist and research where our roots came from?

Then not to harp on the self obssesion part;

"In order to keep from looking at ourselves, we find fault with those closest to us as well as with the institutions ministering to our needs. All we can see are the inadequacies, wrongs, and injustices of others."

I really don't get that. Are there plenty of love everybody jews who also enjoy sex? I mean are the two really 100% correlated?

He concludes his discussion about self obsession by stating "Thus, we make ourselves god."
I'll be honest with you guys while I may come across as mr. tough guy on here. and I may show off that I am bal chesed. I honestly have a very low self esteem of myself. I totally don't think I am g-d. I will leave out certin tramas that I faced as a child and still face. But siffice it say if I had to explore the root of my acting out it was probably insecurity and low self esteem. Believe me I think my peers are alot greater than I am.

As a side note,I loved the way he described how he got hooked and how it all fell into place. But once he gets too deep into the physcology stuff its becomes a little jumble mumble in my mind. I just don't get the whole lingo either. Are there any other easier to read material not to physcological just sweet and to the point? (Not that I am giving up n teh white book it just feels too much like I am learning a shvera R Borach Ber with a very low understanding)

I think the whole back and forth about "to be selfish" or "not to be selfish" has gotten way out of hand. I think we should just let things be. Give the fellow a break. We are here to share ideas - not convince or coerce people to our way of thinking.

Gibor I am passed the selfish thing, next.

Does their have to be a root problem cause and effect for lust? Or is it simply hashem putthe greatest nisyan ever on this world called lust. Men inhernetly are attracted to women.Some take it too much and get addicted. A sad father went to his rebbe once and cryed exclaiming my son went mishiga. He eats chazorim and dances with shiktzas. The reba said oh he is not crazy. If he would dance with chazerim and eat shiktzas then he would be nuts. Now he is simply a bal tavo. So is it tavious or a root problem? From the white book it sounds like it comes from a rebeliious twist and is not natrual. Must we see a therapsit to stop this?

Anyone have nice reading material on this subject the doesn't get too physcological on me. Something like lust 101 for dummies? Something simple? (Nothing against anyone. Its a pure personal thing. I get lost when reading material with that lingo. Thats doesn't make it bad at all.)

What if he would be busy eating chazir while his house was burning down?
Miss an important business meeting just to dance with shiktzas?
Would you still say he's a simple ba'al taiva....or perhaps that crosses the line into meshuga'as?

Bigmoish wrote:


or...if he would fabricate a meetin' just to dance with shiktzas (i hate that word)?

or shiktzas that are chazerim! LOL!!!

Did you follow the point I'm making?
Of course every human male has to deal with lust, and we have started out that way as well.
But when we take it to extreme examples, like I'm sure many of us can personally attest to, it crosses the border of sanity and isn't just plain ol' "taiva" anymore.

Yes Moish we actually agree on something. My lust is way past tavias. Its part & aprcel of my daily life. I can't sleep without it. Its an illness.

But I still wonder if its just a lust sickness. Or is there a root of rebelliousness or some other problem (in my case that maybe low self esteem) lying underneath it that must be solved in order to conquer lust. The white book seems to suggest that their are outside factors underneath the lust disease

What I try to do before I go to sleep is check out what's new on these forums! It works wonders. See the recent Ted talk by Johann hari based on his book chasing the scream, where he claims the opposite of addiction is connection (not that I agree with everything else he says but definitely food for thought)

Waydown, you said "Well the only way to win this lust addiction is to declare war." In my personal experience I found the only way to achieve victory over lust was to admit and feel total defeat. It wasn't until I was completely defeated and could no longer fight that God removed the obsession with lust for a day and has continued to do so daily for 10 months. Maybe your experience will be different. Either way I wish you success, if for no other reason than your success gives me and other hope. Sorry if that sounds selfish

Waydown, there is are two components to an addict. He has an allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind. The allergy is that once I take the first drink of lust it creates the phenomenon of craving. The allergy is only activated when you take that first drink of lust. The obsession is that I can take that first drink of lust and I won't have the allergic reaction. Once the allergic reaction kicks in, that's the powerlessness. It's the reaction that happens when I take the first drink of lust.

R. Shais Taub compares it to a go who takes a large dose of laxative. The laxative causes him to .... well you know. But guess who chose to take the laxative!

Does that help?

4 days Freeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Going on day 5. Tonite will be a big test as well. I have to be around alot of girls today. My mind & girls are magnets. Its a big problem. But lets hope.

Also while I am padding myself on the back, I did get a bruise yesterday. I did look a t a few pics and FB. Overall I was good and much better than before so I won't call it a failure. And it defintley caused my battle last nite to be much more difficult. My urge and icth last nite was terrible. It was driving me nuts and I almost fell a few times

Help me out for tonite guys

Serenity,

Thanks, I think we are almost saying very similar things. Yes once we tasted that lust we are powerless and become addicted. So yes we must avoid the lust triggers. But I would add in my case and I speak only for myself, even avoiding lust triggers won't toally help. I am still powerless unless I am ready to declare war. I can go days without any porn or flirting (Of course I love those stuff) and still masterbate. Whats more, when I started this sin years ago I was not a porn addict. it was just a natraul inner sexual satsifaction. As I said many times it became part & parcel and I can't fall asleep easily without it. You will tell me of cours you can its all in the head. Yes you are correct. I can. But to get that soothing lust dose out of my head takes time and habit breaking. And its has taken over my daily mind as well. So my first drink of lust dose has long been taken. It would be dsinegnious to say oh I am only powerless to that first drink. Becuase I am powerless to stop myself from my lust drink today as well. In other words if I don't lay out a game plan about how to avoid my lust I am powerless over the first drink too.

Re admiting total defeat; Well yes I have said it very clearly, I am ill. And illness means a virus has taken over my body. So yes I have been defeated dismally. But its not a contradiction toward declaring war. why am I defeated? Because I was always a whimp never ready to realize that this will be a life time war and never courageous to stand up and fight. Yes I was self obssesed but I WAS NOT SELFISH. This is a tough battle.( sorry I had to throw that in)

I end off with R Chaim Shmuelvitz's vort that its easier to finsih shas then change one middah. This requires a middah, altitude and life altering change.

5 days free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Thanks. Keep working toward progress chaver. If you're going to fight this opponent just remember it only has the power we give it and is only as big as we make it. No matter how big we make it, it's small when we have a Power greater than ourselves with us.