After researching this and after speaking to other people about this (which can be a good idea for people to do as well), I'd like to concede a point.
To be human is to be selfish or self centered.
That is the struggle of our life.
Reb shimon shkop said that the Torah writes to love your friend as yourself, for inherent in every human is to love himself and one wants to do good to please himself. The kuntz is to expand oneself, to expand the horizon of the 'ani' and include others. In a sense, by making others into us, we wanna do good for them because they are us. We can do a selfless act out of selfishness, and that is a positive thing. The balance is crucial.

Now, getting to chocolate, Lamborghini's and masturbation. One can crave these items, for they provide pleasure to himself, and that in a sense is fine. When it crosses the line, or as rabbi bechofer says, depending on its inherent magnitude, that is when it ceases to be completely selfless, and transcends into selfishness.

In a vacuum, one can obtain these things without adversely effecting others, but once someone is married, works, has friends, part of a family or community, every act needs to be analyzed from a cba (thanks nederman) cost and benefit analysis. What is it costing me or others? Is it time, money, friendship, pleasure, health, etc. and specifically regarding one who is married and he acts out? Yes, he is eating Rosemarie pie, but at what cost? Did this take away time that he should have used for family or work? Will he be less attentive to the needs of his family? Will this, and especially on a consistent basis, affect his relationship with his wife? Will it detract at all from his desire to be intimate with his wife? Will it decrease his pleasure? Her enjoyment? What happens if he is caught? Is he including others in his decision? Does he have full regard for them?

Or, is he committing this act without regard of others?

I will conclude with one other thing. Those of us who have opened up to others and our identity is known to others, when we write something here, we are inherently being more open and honest than the pajama basement hacker. It, thank the good Lord, helps us evaluate our life with even more honesty. I am not insinuating that the pjh is bdavka saying untrue things, but he doesn't have that fast checker and might not have that extra dig deep mentality that some of us have. That is why I continue opening myself to others. I thank all those who know me and help me with recovery, for I know I couldn't do it without them. I have a tremendous ego. I am full of self pride and self centeredness. Many of my actions are determined by that. I need others so I can work on making my life closer to selfless than selfish. Thank you.

B'hatzlachah to all

take it easy wrote:
Welcome! I used to think that I needed to understand "the nature of my addiction", but I found out here that trying to understand was just my way of trying to be in control. I had to trust others, which by definition is giving up control. Naaseh V'nishma.

Also, understanding is not a great motivator. Ask anyone who has tried to stop smoking. They "know" it's bad, but it doesn't help much. Once they start coughing or have a scare with cancer, THAT is motivation. I had to give up on trying to understand and start trusting those who are in recovery. DO what they DO.

Dov has a great line (quoted from his sponsor maybe?) "you can't think yourself into right living, you can only live yourself into right thinking" (something like that).

Some things don't make sense until you DO them.

Hatzlacha! Keep posting!

gibbor120 wrote:


Gibbor, I am seeing the truth of your point more as time goes by, but I would ask you to clarify it with where to draw the line. It seems poshut that the root causes of escapism can be helped somewhat with therapy, perhaps CBT, perhaps a good step 4. These all require thinking, and like most things in life a little common sense doesn't go amiss. Can you please elaborate on how you define the balance? TIA

Don't have time this minute, but Bli Neder I will. If I forget, please remind me.

Hashivalisesonyishecho,

Whats the nafka mina?

Well a large portion of the 12 steps is dependent on realizing one is selfish and working on it. If I am not selfish it would appear that the 12 steps or perhaps a large segment of it may not be relevant to me.

i don't know if that comment was auto generated by your computer

Wow Cords,

Thanks firstly that is longest response I ever saw your write but very clear:)

So my question is regarding my struggle. I have realized that certain aspects of my lust manifest itself into selfishness. So where it has turned into making me selfish I have stopped. But where it has no inherent selfish aspect to it, is where I have the hardest time stopping. To me that seems to mean that its not my selfishness that's connected to my lust rather its simply an addiction.

Re "In a vacuum, one can obtain these things without adversely effecting others, but once someone is married"
This is kind of my point. Since (again in my case) lust started way before it affected others its not my selfishness that brought me to lust. I lusted before I hurt others. The fact that after marriage lust hurt others was only an outcome of my prior addiction. Once I am addicted I have less control.
(Yes I guess you can debate if one has limited control over lust is he being selfish. Does selfish apply to one who acts without control of his actions? Yes of course we all can stop so we have some control but unless tremendous effort is put in its not easly stoppable.)
Its also kind of like the yeshivisha kler of siman or siba? I am trying to say that selfish is not siba for why we lust.

Gibbor,

Part of the 12 steps is a mindset. So I have to "Do what they DO" So I have to just say to myself 100 times I am selfish I am selfish...... This is despite the fact that personally I don't see myself as being that. Its kind of a catch 22. Because yes its advisable to just follow the pros without asking questions. But the pros tell me tell yourself you are selfish or you must realize life is unmanageable. Those paly with ones mind.

Moish,

Again, you seemed to imply that anyone who thinks of porn and masturbation as selfish, is someone who is a member of the 12 step program. Am I mistaken in my understanding?

If I can let me flip around your statement and pharse it like this
"someone who is a member of the 12 step program thinks of porn and masturbation as selfish".

In fact say you choose the taphastic method then this conversation is irrelevant. As many posted lmai nafka mina if I am selfish or not.

The first step is NOT "We addmitted we were selfish..." Step one is "We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable"

You say your life is manageable, so why are you bothering with the 12 steps at all? Who said you need the 12 steps? I sure didn't.

waydown wrote:


R' Waydown, although the post took a lot out of me, it is my greatest pleasure.

As you have seen, I can go for some time w/o respondin' here, and I will do so again, but I will say this.
Before, I was addressin' the issue in general, not you.

To you, I will answer simply: Stop worryin' about why you have this "itch."
We can almost agree that it is becomin' somewhat unmanageable (and let's not quibble about the meanin' of the word, but it's very much on your head to get rid of it).

Accordin'ly, my suggestion would be to work on resentments and self-centeredness stuff for two weeks; whatever way you wanna. I think you will see improvement in the "itch" department.

don't debate me please; what does it hurt to work on these two middos?

b'hatzlachah to you

Cords lets work out a plan. After all like you say what do I loose?

So Day #1 what do I do to work on resentments and becoming selfless (sorry I'd rather use the world selfless as opposed to self centered). What do I do? Mussar? Something else?Please don't overload me with stuff lets keep it to five minutes a day! It can also vary day to day.

Thanks.

Do something nice for your wife. Just because. It can be a compliment, something nice you do to help her out. the dishes, laundry, sweep etc. Buy her something just because. Flowers, a card. Do not expect anything in return.

You know your house and what would be helpful. Think about it.

Just my suggestion.

waydown wrote:


my pleasure.
You could learn mussar, but I am not an expert in that regard at all.
my suggestion: take out a step 4 sheet and fill out the first column on resentments.

[they provide room for 8 or 9; one of the fellows is up to 37 and he only scratched the surface. he only got thru one side of the street and his wife's side of the family.]

b'hatzlachah

I think my approach is simpler, and likely to actually happen much faster. But he must decide for himself.