Perhaps I will get up to 10, and it can be my personal aseres hadibros

Don't try to define and/or describe everything... and don't ask why not

waydown wrote:

I'm not smart enough to deal with the various levels so to me it's a simpler distinction that I define as selfish vs selfless, aka taking pleasure vs. receiving pleasure.
However, none of us are 100% selfish or 100% selfless, it's just a matter of moving the needle on the split between the two, and that requires self-honesty.
I try not to make statements as if I know all the facts but this seems too obvious to me.


Again, this comes back to not accepting our human condition as a fait accompli, but as the starting point for a lifetime of potential growth. Taking into account the previous point that this is not binary, it's a work in progress, I think it's fair to say that we don't have to assume this is a high level that we have no shaychus to. Maybe we don't even have the right to make that assumption, and maybe we are mechuyav to strive for it by moving the needle bit by bit.

gibbor120 wrote:

Don't ask "why" and/or "why not"

Oh I am not obsessing over what's normal. To be its blatantly obvious without obsessing. The point of discussing what's normal is to challenge the notion that one can never lust over his wife. Its an important point to make

Why not ask why or why not?

Is there an 11th commandment stating " one who is a luster shall follow thy directions of the GYE commenters"

Generally I only do rational thing in life unless commanded otherwise.

Eislassos,

Re selfish verse selfless. Look this is also an old discussion and sorry I am bringing up one of my buried discussions again. Here is how I perceive selfish. Selfish is about satisfying ones need's while causing harm to another individual. I am not convinced that lust always causes harm to someone else. Yes when I have to watch porn while my kids are screaming and wife is going nuts all while I am supposedly "busy" and unavailable that's selfish. Is masterbating hurting someone else? That's up for debate. Now how about pleasing myself while totally pleasing my wife during intercourse does that hurt anyone? (Again in my case I make a full effort to ensure that my wife is totally comfortable and satisfied) So is it selfish at all if I get excited over the opportunity to release and relive my itch? Am I selfish when I eat supper with my wife because I relieve my hunger?

Re "maybe we are mechuyav to strive for it by moving the needle bit by bit. "
Yes I totally agree that an ultimate goal can be no lust even with one's wife. And I think BenTorah.BaalHabayis did allude to the fact that he is a kollel guy or at least learned. As such I think its wise to learn shulcah arauch orach chaim siman kuf mem (I tihink its kuf mem) where he discusses hilchos tashmish. I found this to be one of the most challenging halachos in Shulchan aruch. It gives us an eye opener where a yid should be holding in life. That being said, people as myself who have serious lust problems, here is how I would like to move the needle bit by bit. First stay clean for whatever 90 days ,100 days etc.. In the interim continue lusting for my wife whom its "normal" to lust for. Once I have reached a goal of controlling my lust, then I can say ok let move the needle up and now try not to lust for my wife. But when I am on day 2 or day 3 of my clean streak that thought is off the charts.

I need to lose weight.
I love Pizza, soda, chips, cake and cookies.
Sticking to a strict diet is of course the shpitz, but I'm not holding there, and most people aren't holding there either. It's normal for most people to eat pizza and cake and soda.

That being said, people as myself who have serious food problems, here is how I would like to move the needle bit by bit. First lose weight for whatever 90 pounds ,100 pounds etc.. In the interim continue eating my pizza/soda whom its "normal" to eat. Once I have reached a goal of controlling my weight, then I can say ok let's move the needle up and now try not to eat any of those things. But when I am on day 2 or day 3 of my diet, that thought is off the charts.

Huh still going I totally missed you analogy,

Here is how I would say it. I need to loose serious weight I eat tons and tons of cholent & kugel. And its normal for most people to eat cholent bya kiddush but I eat tons.
So first lose weight via only eating when necessary for fulfillment and in moderation. That includes no cholent, overnite kugel with kishka, gala, and yapchik by a Kiddush. But during my Shabbos meal I can still eat in moderation some of those delcious foods. Then once I get in the habit of moderation and not fressing and I loose 90 pounds now for the second 90 pounds (which are harder to loose) maybe I should push the needle a bit and reconsider eating any cholent or overnite kugel even during my meal. I can be yotzweh chamin Shabbos with chicken soup (no knidelach in the soup that's to fattening!)

I like the way, you wrote cholent and I wrote pizza. It may say something about us, although I'm not sure what.

I'm not saying that you won't lose any weight on a half diet. I will take a while, it may be harder in the long run, but it is still possible. If one sticks to the diet, the second 90 pounds will be easier to lose, not harder, because he already got used to a healthier living. What I am trying to point out though, is although it may be possible to work out in the end, practically, I never heard of anyone actually loosing and keeping off weight, with a half diet.

I have never meet anyone on diet who truly never cheats. In fact they say over a masa from R Yakov ZT"L that a dr put him once on a strict diet. When it came time for the next visit the dr was shocked how much weight he lost. The dr expressed concern and asked him if he starved himself. To which R yakov replied no I just stuck to your diet. The dr answered shockingly, but I prescribe diets based on the realization that people cheat on it every now &then. In all honesty though I have seen plenty of those on diets that are allowed to eat once a week during Shabbos meals a bit more. Its not really a half a diet but more like a controlled diet.
Agav I have seen family member on a half diet which worked perfect. He decided to work on moderation rather than only eat two whole wheat crackers and tuna fish a whole week. He ate whatever he wanted but forced self control via just eating less to the point of training himself to always walk away a little hungry. That mode became his way of life and he still looks great 20 years later.

True.
I'm not sure how that would tie into the lust thing. I only meant it as a moshel, but If you would like to talk diets, I'm game. I can do with less cholent and kugel, just don't take away my pizza. Now if we can figure out a way to have cholent With the pizza then we would really be in business!!!!

OH! I think I just chapped. (a little slow today) Were you saying that one can cheat on his diet and still loose weight, so too lust... Maybe, maybe not. In the 90 day chart rules, it describes what is a fall and what is a slip with regard to the chart. It seems to me that slipping In a slip when no one is looking is really cheating and yet one does not restart the chart. (obviously not recommended, I've found that the slips usually lead to falls within 24 hours). Cheating drags out the process and makes it harder, but it could still work. But I think that we need to define cheating as slips, and not falls. Noshing a little bit is cheating, but a full triple burger with fries and a coke (2 liter - outside of n.y.) is a fall and will gain the person calories. If he eventually reaches his goal of losing 90 pounds, it is despite that. The fall made the diet much harder.

bardichev wrote: