Great Cartoon I loved it!!!

Perhaps we need to distinguish between "lust" and "desire". It is normal and proper to desire one's wife, in the context of bringing a loving relationship to its ultimate physical connection by each one giving to the other. And yes, you are allowed to (perhaps supposed to) enjoy it, but that should not be the focus. When the focus turns towards one's own pleasure then it becomes lust, and it doesn't matter whether it's for your wife or someone else.

And just because a lot of people have their priorities wrong doesn't make it right. We are working towards an ideal, which may be very hard for most people to fully achieve. But just because so many others can't or won't get there doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Again if the norm is to lust ones wife perhaps its is Ok to please ourselves. I do contend that its shouldn't be our primary focus. But what's wrong with pleasing ones self while also pleasing others.

Re "And just because a lot of people have their priorities wrong doesn't make it right. "
Its does make it the way the world which begs to say that their is something to it. hashem made us lust for a reason. And by the way I mean a lot of frum people.

"We are working towards an ideal, which may be very hard for most people to fully achieve".
Just realize its a lofty ideal. Its not wrong and its commended. But then when a guy posts about his disappointment that he didn't have kosher fun on mikva nite. OK he is not lofty. That doesn't make his kosher fun ideal wrong.

waydown wrote:


Again, "desire" not "lust". And the "way of the world" is nebach very far for most people from what Hashem intended. But that shouldn't stop each one of us to strive to achieve what we can.

Did hashem not intend us to lust for our wives? Are you so certain that hashem made lust the normal tendency of us humans to have yet he said never use it? To me that's hard to understand. Or did he say use it but only for your wife? Maybe all we need to achieve is to only lust for our wives?

Do you enjoy a Chocolate coated jelly/custard filled doughnut? You're like everyone else
Do you think about Chocolate coated jelly/custard filled doughnuts more than 2 seconds a day? You are lusting
It's normal to enjoy tashmish, it's not 'normal' to lust for it

Well now define lust and addiction to lust. I think lust is normal. Its not normal to obsses ourselves that, its all we think about all day every time we see someone. But its very normal to think about our wives more than two seconds a day. And again I think that's why most guys want more than just what the gemara in kiddushin labels is liking the way ones wife looks like.

Well you ought to be thinking about your wife more than 2 seconds a day But if when you think of her all you think about is sex then you have a problem.

Gevura Shebyesod wrote:


Gevura, if I may add to your pearls of wisdom, I would add another possibility -
And if when you do think about intimacy, your focus is your own satisfaction.

This is the trickiest of all for me.

Once again I have no clue what the "focus" is. But the normal of the world (including the frum world) is that one does think about their wife in terms of sex. is it all you think about? No But its on most humans mind. Does he only focus on his own statisfaction? No But most humans definitely have that in the equation. And that's why many bochrim in shidduchim want someone very pretty. Yes if they are not obsessed its not all they think about but its on their mind. And so if the argument is that obsession is about and not normal that's a fair and true point to make. But to say don't look forward to mikva nite as kosher fun I don't think thats the norm. And I am not sure that it wrong to think of ones wife that way unless its an obsession.

waydown wrote:


Where are you getting this from?! Are you normal? Last i checked you admit you're an addict... Has anything changed?

I would like to be honest (the mods can edit this out if they want to).
Waydown: You frustrate the heck outta me. I know that this thread is not about me or my feelings, but I gotta be straight up. For someone who has all the questions, it's pretty (ahem) ridiculous that you have all the answers. Sex addiction is not gemara, lomdus will never cure you and figuring out everything yourself is probably what you did your whole life. This is not a sugya that we can dan up. When did I get sober? When I shut my (ahem) mouth and did what my sponsor said. I wouldn't have 5 minutes of sobriety if I tried to figure it out myself. I need god, sponsorship and meetings. Common thread between them? Either they are a power greater than myself, or they get me out of my head, or both. I have a diseased brain, of course it would convince me that lust is fine! It's like asking McDonalds if it's ok to eat burgers. My brain WANTS it's drug!

waydown wrote:


It is sad that you have difficulty listening to others.
You did have a period of listening though.
Read my posts in the beginning where I also didn't understand people.
I questioned and listened.
You state some things as fact and majority and some of them are over the top.
You are convinced that all boys look for models....don't know where you get that from.
You also continue to make the correlation between pretty with lust and sex. That borders on the asinine, as being pretty has nothing to do with that, as I argued some time ago.
You also write that it is normal to think of one's wife regarding sex....where do you get that from? Who did you ask?
There is a part of your argument that can have some validity, but when you lace your posts with these absurd and unfounded assertions, it has a negative effect.

Cords,
Correct me if I am wrong but I think you are a bit older than I am. I was not to long ago in shidduchim and I still have friends in it. I don't think you know too many guys in shidduchim. I am telling you that its the normal to look for very pretty girls in my circles.
Re "You also continue to make the correlation between pretty with lust and sex".
If all these guys want is a pretty girl as the gemara in kiddushin wants that one should like the looks of a girl, then they wouldn't be asking for pretty the way they are asking for it. They do not mean just that gemara. They mean something more. Again lust is vague but if it means getting excited for ones wife in a manner where it pleases ones desire then that's clearly the intent and its the normal way of the world.
Re "Who did you ask? "
Like I said after hanging out in shidduchim long enough and speaking and hearing the way guys talk its quite obvious. No-one will tell you Hey I lust and love thinking about sex. But that's what their doing without saying it. If no-one is in the woods and a tree falls who says it makes noise?
Oh and I never did get your pointer on make-up. I just left it as is. To me make-up is all about lust. After all why else does one need to do something so external. I am not suggesting that my wife puts it on so other men should lust but she often puts it on special for me. Why? Because she wants me lust her. Or maybe lust is too strong she wants me to get excited over her looks. Its not just love. There is certainly an added sexual excitement between couple. I love my mother too.
And once again I fully understand that for addicts extra measures are needed. And thus we have to be lifnim mishuras hadin. Just like an norm individual can enjoy a nice wine by Kiddush but alcoholics should only use grape juice. And so lust addicts should only use love not lust. My point was only that who says everyone is a lust addict. For non lust addicts, perhaps channeling ones normal DNA (as I established above) towards using it only for his wife is helpful or at -least harmless.

Shlomo,

I have no clue if I am an addict or just someone that never decided to tackle my problem in 20 years.

I don't know that I need g-d sponsorship and meetings. I don't know that I need to get it out of my head. If this is what you need then great. And please don't lust for your wife since it will impede and harm your recovery. I can tell you one thing lusting for my wife has actually helped me recover tremendously. Yes I have no clue if its a temp fix or real fix but it helps alot. (Of course just because I please myself doesn't mean pleasing and satisfying my wife won't come first.)