Shlomo24 wrote:


It's nice to be taken so seriously but I must admit that it isn't justified .

I didn't mean anything by it. I was just being a little sarcastic as if to say that strong desires don't serve us. But really they could serve us if they motivate us to act in the right direction. The action being what cords said in his post titled What 'Cortes' meant:.

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


ohhhhh, i'm a little slow with these things sometime... no need to be sorry

waydown wrote:


Getting rid of triggers isn't yet the recovery. It's just necessary to do in order to get into the recovery process. Now that you have gotten rid of all the triggers(if you have, because maybe there are some that you don't realize and they will become evident during the process of working towards recovery) it's time to get working with a recovery program.

My program so far is talking to a chaver/sponser on a regular basis. But today I made some decisions to get rid of some additional triggers because I see that my mind isn't completely there to facilitate the recovery process because I'm clouded by lust. I thought of this and decided this today when they lained וימאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאאן I was thinking that this is what we need to do with all triggers. Just say No!No!No!No!No!No!No!No!No!No!No!No!No!No! to drown out the voice of the maisis and don't allow any discussion to reason with your decision of No! Now I hope my program will be more effective. I believe that my program is somewhat effective already and I also believe that it is through my program that I have what it takes to come to such decisions and to hear this message during krias haTorah.

So just say No No No!!!! etc..

very nice so now when you see an attractive lady you will say no but the mind will still be thinking about it. And at night when I can't sleep without my daily dose of lust saying no means not sleeping

waydown wrote:


It seems clearly that you need a recovery program besides just white knuckling against all triggers. This is what I have been saying.

this thread is evident that many ppl on gye have hearts of gold

If we are going to have a conversation that is way off topic, we can do it on your thread or mine. Let's not hijack other people's threads.
waydown wrote:

Again, why do you care about "your typical Lakewood bochur?" Why do you need to bother yourself with how I thought about women when I was in shidduchim? Worry about yourself!
Bigmoish wrote:

Moish,

"Again, why do you care about "your typical Lakewood bochur?" Why do you need to bother yourself with how I thought about women when I was in shidduchim? Worry about yourself! "

Because that's my point. You can't expect someone to be unrealistic. The way we are made is that its normal to have a little lust inside us. And so to infer that its totally incorrect and that its only permissible in the face of committing more averious is I think unfair and disingenuous. Basically people are saying don't be normal. As I outlined in my circles its normal to lust for ones wife.
And so if one wants to suggest well addicts have to take measures beyond what's normal just as its normal to take a drink every now & then but an alchohlic stays far away OK I get that. (Although I can't fully understand that because we are still married and many want to have kids. And so its like telling an alchohlic drink but you can't enjoy your drinks or get high. But then again maybe a sex addict should live like a priest and not a have kids or any relationship. That's quite rash).
But to say overall that we can't lust for mikva nights when that's the norm is just difficult to comprehend.
And this is why I have been trying to only lust for my wife and when I see others I say hey my wife is so much prettier why lust for someone else. For me saying to do something not the norm is difficult to comprehend.

A Rebbe told me once with regard to lust - you can't control what comes into your head, what happens next is up to you.

waydown wrote:

Let's assume that it helps you somehow to rationalize all your lusting by saying it's "normal."
You don't have any proof of what's normal. Have you been inside other people's minds? Are you a psychologist by any chance?

Again the facts speak for themselves Moish.

When boys say the only want pretty girls and they must see pictures of them too. When boys won't even consider girls who are not drop dead gorgeous what does that say? Do I have to be in their head to know that drop dead gorgeous = lust? Why then does someone need a drop dead gorgeous girl? And yes that's very common in certain circles. Now if you want to say the world is not normal then OK.

waydown wrote:

There are no facts. I don't go on such websites that post pictures of engaged couples anymore, because it is dangerous for me, but suffice it to say that in my eyes, most girls who get engaged are not so gorgeous. Why one person may need a strikingly beautiful woman at his side is of no consequence to me, and there is no point trying to assume, again, not based on any facts whatsoever, why he would. Maybe because his ego needs everyone to see what a "catch" he got. Maybe he has pure motives and is not addicted to lust, porn, and masturbation like me, but rather, just wants to make sure, as the gemara in kiddushin says, that he is not disgusted by the way she looks. And, by the way, I have many friends, and redt shidduchim to many others. None of them have admitted that they needed a "drop-dead gorgeous" girl, and only a very very very small percentage even had a "kol" about them that that's what they were looking for. (Strangely, the general reaction when those guys got engaged was "THAT'S what he was holding out for!?!?!," so really it's about each person's individual perception, anyway.) Your "facts" are fiction.

You don't need to go on websites my friend. Not to long ago I have been in shidduchim and I have had friends in shidduchim and family members as well. I can gladly bring you around to some infamous dormitories which I will not post in public (but I think you know which one I am referring to) and you can see if its the minority as you say. And its irrelevant if in your eyes those girls are pretty or not. The point is why are guys obsessed with looks. Its the first question many guy asks each other when they shmuz shidduchim.

Re "Maybe because his ego needs everyone to see what a "catch" he got."
For some reason money and prestige matter less and looks take a precedent. That's despite the fact that he will get honors and kavod for the shidduch.So perhaps its just ego but you tell me why looks are #1 then.

Re", as the gemara in kiddushin says, that he is not disgusted by the way she looks.

Come on that's why he needs only drop dead gorgeous. I don't mean an ugly deformed person but I mean when guys want only very pretty. That's all just the gemara in kiddushin?

"And, by the way, I have many friends, and redt shidduchim to many others. None of them have admitted that they needed a "drop-dead gorgeous" girl, and only a very very very small percentage even had a "kol" about them that that's what they were looking for"

I had very different experience of friends and they were generally ehrich too. And it got worse now-days not better. Ask any shadchan.

Re "Your "facts" are fiction"

My facts are facts. The fact is many guys want more than just what the gemara in kiddushin means to like the looks of an isha. Now you can argue that the reason is not due to lust but other reasons. I can't laydown a fact to prove its lust other than logical sense. I mean if one is in the woods and a tree falls does it really make noise? Well yes. Prove it how do you know. The answer is certain things in life are so obvious that no proof is necessary.

As I said before, in the haste of you and many heiliga yidden on GYE's quest and zeal to become heilieg and surrender lust we want the normal to be no lust and rightfully so. You want only what's totally the shpitz as you are a ben aliyah. The intentions is very good and proper. But I think sometimes we forget the true norms of those left behind not on such high madrigas.

waydown wrote:

I have no idea of the statistics, and if what you're saying is true it's tragic. I ask Hashem to help me to raise my children so they will not be part of that statistic. Shortly after marriage they will realize that looks don't make for a happy marriage and I hope they learn the lesson gracefully. But it doesn't make one iota of difference to me. I'm not willing to use that information to change my mind about defining right and wrong. I don't see this as a shailoh that should be answered by puk chazi mei ama dvar.

As I posted previously, I am not qualified to say whether you're right or wrong to use your wife as a lust quencher. However, the fact that a certain percentage of young men have their priorities wrong is irrelevant to me, and it makes no difference whether that percentage is 1% or 90%.
The only conclusion I can draw from this imaginary poll is that lust is a normal part of the human condition, but we knew that already.



I'm certainly no tzaddik, and I'm 99% sure that Bigmoish doesn't see himself as a tzaddik either. I'm sure he will let me know if I'm wrong.
IMHO, feeling lust is normal - but I don't think the One Above wants me to accept it as a valid factor that should be allowed to influence on my actions.
Does lust still influence my actions? Absolutely! Does that make it acceptable? Absolutely not!
What should I do about it? I'm still figuring it out, but probably should be working on my step 4 rather than trying to prove my point here.

Eislassos,

But maybe since feeling lust is the way of the world then that is what hashem wants for ones wife? That's my point. If that's the norm then perhaps hashem just wants us to channel it in a kosher way? Who says its has no place. If it wasn't the norm then you would have a valid argument. If we know its part of the human condition then its unlikely that it has no place in our lives. Perhaps an addict has to take extraordinary measures and so it should have no place in an addict's live. But for everyone else?
Personally I hope my children are normal and well balanced. And yes I do want my daughter to look pretty But I hope none of my children are addicted to it as me (and my father was as well.) One more pointer, if its the norm even if its true that one should not lust for his wife its surely not wise telling a newbie that us chevar on GYE are not normal! We don't want to scare anyone away.

Sorry one more pointer which I vehemently disagree and will fully point it out. You say that you & big Moish are not tzadkim. But you are 1000% one zillion percent wrong. As a luster myself, I can attest that tackling this problem of lust is ten times harder than finishing shas. Its very hard to be commited and learn torah every day no matter what.(I am already half way done shas) But this is just so much harder. Yet you & big moish grabbed the bull by its horns and are dealing with this issue while I still lack the commitment. There is no way that you guys are not tzadkim.