waydown wrote:


It is true that I sent you one fellow, but he never had a chance to explain it.

An itch to scratch there is one thin', but nobody here is connectin' that with actin out.

And please, please, listen.

An itch to scratch there is the start of one hormones to act out. Why do you think big tzadkim never scratched there. Of course that doesn't mean once you scratch the game is over. Its a very long stretch to connect the two so closely. But what I will say is that its all one shorosh. When I relieve myself its takes away that itching sensation. And by the way there are hlochos when going to the bies hakisa too. One should only touch that area if needed and via a separation between one physical hands and the aver I.E. placing few tissues on the aver because touching causes a greater itch which may lead for one to be motzai zera. My point there is something physical involved to.

I think you are distorting the halacha.
There are halachos regarding touching one's penis even when he is urinating. According to your logic, urination is an urge to masturbate. That is obviously not correct.
There is such a concept as a rash in the pubic area. The halacha is that if one needs to scratch himself due to an itch, he may only do so through a thick piece of material. You are saying that this itch is of a sexual nature. It is not. It is irritated skin.
The reason we are forbidden from touching ourselves even just for itching or urinary purposes may be because chazal didn't want us to touch there at all, lest we come to masturbation.
The actual feeling and the necessity to touch there in the first place is not a sexual urge in these instances.

Mosh,

So it doesn't physically itch more when the urge is strong?

"because chazal didn't want us to touch there at all, lest we come to masturbation"

why will touching lead to masterbation? Is it not because while touching it increases the itch thereby desire. Maybe itch is a wrong term maybe I should call it an inner urge to masterbate as one has an inner urge to go to the bathroom which puts pressure on that area. But to a point its a natrual DNA inner urge. yes its 1000 times worse after viewing porn. But its also a natrual urge. It is slightly different than a misquito bit itch. But its still some what for the very short term satsified by scratching it albiet its very short term.

I cannot post details in public but lehvidal unfortunately most of us are aware of at-least the concept of what a massage is. That's physcial.

As a side note, I try to wear loose PJ's when sleeping because when its loose and there is air it brings me to less of that inner urge/ arousal. Thats one of my many tools.

waydown wrote:

It's called arousal. It happens when we are sexually excited. Yes, it feels good to "scratch" it. That is what we need to avoid. Everyone here is working on ignoring that "itch." You confused us all when you said it's a mosquito bite-like itch that you see people scratching all the time. It is not. You are describing masturbation. Is it difficult to fall asleep without "scratching" after 10, 15, 20, 50 years of masturbating ourselves to sleep every night? Absolutely. But it can be done.

waydown wrote:
This is consistent with the halacha that it is forbidden to sleep in a position that will cause sexual arousal (e.g. lying on our back) or cause any unnecessary erections, regardless of the time of day.
B'Hatzlocha

Yes thank you Moish but often it doesn't happen due to a sexual trigger per say like viewing porn. It can come due to our natural DNA. It can come from eating meat thats why its assur on erev yom kiippur to eat meat. It can also come form rubbing even if we are not thinking immoral thoughts. Or as you say lying in certain positions. We have hormones that produce that sexual desire. Even if we surrender we still have hormones. I am not suggesting its not our fault or its not our work. My point is simply its not all in the mind. Part of it is a physical man like hormone.

Sometimes, in postin', the intent and true meanin' does not come out clear.
This thread has some of that - to the fault of no one.
I do suggest that you find some mentor, Rebbe, mashpia to talk this over with.
My hunch is that it should be someone you know, but perhaps not.

I will conclude (and this will be my last post on this subject here) by sharin' the followin':
I had the 'itch' to act out for three and a half decades, and I followed up on that itch.
I got myself inspired to act out; it came upon me thru thoughts and positions, and I searched it out, etc., etc. All those male hormones i know all about it.
Several years ago, I decided to recover.
I did not wanna be controlled by those damn itches.
I wanted to live outside the bathroom as well.
I was not always successful, but you know what? Those itches are now few and far between.
My male hormones are sadly still as strong as always, but with the grace of God, I am livin' a masturbation-free life, and you know what? That's a damn good feelin' too!
Perhaps you'll ask me how, and the answer is a combination of thin's:
1. Good therapist
2. GYE
3. A sponsor or two
4. SA meetin's
5. Book readin'
6. Reachin' out to real live people
7. Phone conferences
8. Workin' the steps


I wish you only the best.

Still struggling to stay clean at nite. BH I can fall asleep initally without masterbating. That itself is a great accomplishment for someone who never did that in the past. But almost every night one my kids wake up. That's where the challenge arises. When I am grogy, twisting and turning etc.. I can't think straight. And so i resort to the easiest outlet. I masterbate and sooth myself to sleep. Any ideas how to overcome this challenge?

Just one small pointer before ideas are posted, at 3 am the mind is not there. Thus any ideas requiring a brain or thought process is futile.(I.E. think of 30 good things hashem did for me today recently) I can't think and I am brain fried at 3 in the morning.

Another possible idea...

https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/114662-When-I-am-half-asleep-is-when-my-problem-becomes-more-than-just-a-problem#114676

Huh I am slow. Please explain. Do you mean Surrender? If yes that doesn't happen over night. Its not abara cadabara I surrender. One has to work the steps. For now I need an emergency room solution. If not please explain what you mean

Can I just say that this whle time I thought you meant a metaphorical itch, not a real itch. I am itchy all the time, but not because I am horny, it is a sweaty place that is prone to skin problems, at least for me. It is true if I spend too much time down there I may get other ideas. But associating physical itchiness with arousal is new to me. Perhaps you do have a skin condition.

As for the 90 days, I see it as a chance to remove the repetitive processes that we have done for so many years and replace them with healthy ones. Not about stopping addiction for an addict, more about getting into good habbits.

As for the wife being the outlet and undermining the 90 days, I can't speak to that, I just didn't have sex with my wife. But that is another story.

MBJ,

So after speaking to many helpful guys on GYE here is how I will define the "itch". No its not skin like condition. Rather its an inner craving for an orgasim that's strongly felt in the Asu Makom. Its so strong sometimes that if you told me OK you can have that orgasim via fantszing about a wall I would grab that opportunity as well. I wanted to argue that therefore, its not simply lust. But its a silly argument. Orgasim and lust is one in the same. You can't separate the two. An orgasm is the climax of lust. So I can argue OK I just need that climax I don't need the whole lead up.Its true some people feel the need for that lead up and I don't. I don't feel sucjh a strong urge to watch porn as much as to climax. So its like a shikkur who doesn't care what kind of bozz he drinks. He just needs to get drunk. But at the end of the day that is lust. The creature of masterbation is to cliamax after lusting.

I hope I make sense to you all.

Thank you. I hear you, for me porn was just a way of getting to my release, I didn't enjoy it for its own sake. (Not that that makes it any better.) I remember I used to have times when my hands would literally start shaking because I wanted to masturbate so badly. They just wanted to go down there. I still feel like that sometimes. B"H, it never became part of my sleep ritual like you are dealing with.

MBJ wrote:


In connection to the 'itch'

Ramba"m

ולא יבעול אלא כשימצא גופו בריא וחזק ביותר והוא מתקשה הרבה שלא לדעתו ומסיח עצמו לדבר אחר והקישוי בו כשהיה וימצא כובד ממתניו ולמטה וכאלו חוטי הביצים נמשכים ובשרו חם זה צריך לבעול ורפואה לו שיבעול

And I saw in the Big Book

Though we work out our solution on the spiritual as well as
an altruistic plane, we favor hospitalization for the alcoholic
who is very jittery or befogged. More often than not, it is
imperative that a man’s brain be cleared before he is
approached, as he has then a better chance of
understanding and accepting what we have to offer.

Ad can leshono

And I don't think he means to say that the person shouldn't be stoned when approached because that goes without saying. I think he means that he shouldn't have the bottle near by and therefore be preoccupied by the thought of drinking. So in the same way I think with Lust the person can't be in the matzav described by The Ramba"m above while trying to recover. He has to get out of that mode first somehow.