You agree that you need to change your current, lustful mind frame, yet you appear to be very closed minded to any other ideas.
This is not the attitude of someone who is prepared to recover.

Hey I am not close minded at all. My main argument throughout this thread is that you can't contradict yourslef. You can't say lust an illness out of one control. Yet its an act of selfishness In gemara terms thats called a stira. Again that doesn't passul at least I hope not the whole approach. I think its a very fine subtle point.

FYI, Here are some ideas of the forum that I have embraced;

1) Daven harder
2) Try to somewhat sychrinze ones schedule with his wife
3) Admit that its out of ones control
4)Read the white book. I started reading it.

Good nite everyone please daven for me to stay sober tonite. And tahnk you all for putting up with my whinning!

waydown wrote:

Res ipsa loquitur.

Huh so I googled it and found out what it means. So yes I agree I am negliegent if I don't treat and tackle my sickness which leads to out of my control acting. So now the argument is by not tackling one of the most difficult and hardest illnesses we are in itself being selfish. Neglligent? Yes. But selfish I am not sure if thats a fair statement. And if one is tackling this pressig issue yet falls he is surely not being selfish as he is doing his best.

Bigmoish wrote:

Selfishness:
I think that there might be diferent understandings of what selfishness is.
While one can look at himself and say "Hey I spend all my time and money on helping other people" that can be true while at the same time he is really being selfish. (My point that I am in the middle of making has nothing to do with whether it is a good thing or bad thing. A selfishness that leads to helping others can be a good and recommendable thing. Something one should continue doing. However it is still selfish.)
There are people that are very dedicated to many causes, but what would happen if the person all of a sudden doesn't have the ability to help? would he feel sad? would it bother him? would he feel that he is no longer making a contribution to society?
If so, then it can very well be that the desire for self worth, the desire to feel that he is being a good person, is the real impetus for his actions.
A very simple example happened with my family. My children were saying that they love having guests. I asked why? and they said it's a mitzah bla bla bla. SO I said great, I will invite Chaim yankel (Fake name) who is a bit mentally disturbed and is a difficult guest who comes every so often. they all said no way. and i said aha!! so you aren't thinking about helping the guests, you are thinking about your own enjoyment of having the guests. (the point was accepted and chaim yankel was invited)
It is a very fine line and that brings me to my next point:
Honesty:
Honesty is an ongoing process. It takes time to really key in to what makes us tick. to really underastand what is going on in our minds.
Honesty is about looking at things from an objective point of view and not a subjective. The more honest we are the more we come to realize that things we believed to be true are really the result of our negios convincing us that they are true.

masturbation and selfishness,
there can be no doubt that the actual act of masturbation is a selfish act. yes so might be eating, although eating can sometimes be for the purpose of having energy to serve others. that is because there is an actuall positive benefit from eating.
there is no positive benefit from masturbation other than pleasure. It is usually some kind of sexual pleasure but i guess it might also be the pleasure of settling down an itch (Although I didn't reall understand how ejaculation makes the itch go away, but I will take your word for it) In that scenario it is still a pleasure that only you are benefiting from - comfort. comfort is also a pleasure. and you are the only one that is benefitting from going to sleep without the itch as opposed to going to sleep with the itch.
(It reminds me in a sense of what I once heard from a rebbe while discusssing the concept of tayva. He pointed out that salt is comletely a tayva food. the only difference between food with or without salt is taste. He was not reccomending eating food without salt but was merely pointing out the extent that tayva has on us even on simple levels without us realizing it. )

As far as whether masturbating in itself affects a marriage if one's wife doesn't know about it, I believe (with no scientific proof to back it up - other than my own emotions) that it does. If one uses his sexual organs for his own pleasure, he is automatically building up a mechitza between him and his wife. Perhaps I can explain it like this: as long as the only way that one relates to his own penis is in regards to relations with his wife, then when he is actually having relations with her, he is completely there emotionally. If one has his own relationship with his penis, then when he is with his wife there is some part of him that is also being with himself . usually we refer to this as lust or love, giving or taking - but in this context the point comes out that every time we masturbate, we are developing our own relationship with our penis and then when we are with are wife, automatically the relationship is different.
So yes, I believe the actual act of masturbation, besides for being a completely selfish act, is indeed hurting one's relationship with his wife.
I have learned this through sobriety and through deepening my relationship with my wife and seeing how they relate.

I think i had more points I wanted to make but it I got distracted and forgot what they were and besides this is long enough.

And by the way cordnoy, I couldn't deny you your request (see here) to be involved in the conversation. basic rules of hakaros hatov demanded it.

I was free gain last nite!

Two days Free Yippy!

Huh? Just repeating the same line won't change thats its simply not true what you state.

I specificlly mentioned that I am not close minded to "any other" ideas. I have intiated some ideas and hope to continute too.

That doesn't mean that I have to agree to "every" single thing posted.

And again I will state with certianity. This is an adddiction, mental illness and something out of our control. The only thing we can control is the behavior that leads us into the acting out aspect. But thats extremely extremly difficult. I agree life is not a bowl of cherries. We are here to tackle difficult problems. But you cannot in any way call that selfish

I was not referring to the legal term. "Res ipsa loquitur" literally means "the matter speaks for itself."
You wrote "I hardly doubt I will change my opinon on that ever."
This too: "I would be shocked to here differnetly."

In my mind, those statements make it pretty obvious that you are not that interested in opening your mind to new ideas.

From what I remember reading on the forum and my own experience, most people realized through sobriety that they were alot more selfish than they initially thought.
I most definitely did. and the discovery came as a real shock.

I didn't really understand the logic that you used at the end of the last post to prove that i cannot in any way call it selfish.

But either way hatzlacha on you journey to sobriety.

unanumun wrote:


Gold!
Gold!
I don't even have what to nitpik about!
simply gold!
Thanks

Both for unanumun and Big Mosh let me explain what I mean that its in no way selfish and I wll never change that opinon.

1) We all know that when acting out we are powerless. Once my "itch" is there I have no control. That is step #1 in recovery. Realize that we are not in control of our actions. Once the itch and desire attacks me I can't stop it. That being said the actual act of acting out is not selfish. You can't be selfish if you have no control over your action. As I stated often, when a mentally ill individual hurts or offends you he is not selfish. He has no control overhimself rather he is ill just as I am.

(As a side note yes its a terrible burning itch almost like a huger crave that causes me to at out. unanumun asks how it takes the itch away.Well for the 1st 2 or 3 hours after masterbating the icth is not there. Its true that it returns with a greater vengenace. Thats why when I wake up in middle of the nite I often do it again.)

2) What can I do? Combat the illness before it flares up. Combat lust. Look for solutions to prevent that itch from coming or at -least weaken its stregnth. This work requires being on the ball 24/7. I will need lots of soul searchinh to remove my triggers. Lots of reading up, behvaioral changes and building constant fences. Of course lost of davening too. I have started saying krias shma al hmaita from a siddur with more kavana. Alot of krias shima al hmaita is about not being nechshal. And I will admit thats the easiet change. There are alot more intitavives that I am taking. Bottom line its a tough long war. And I will have many sleepless nites as i have had the past two nites twisting and turning but refusing to give in to my yetzer. (For the past 18 yrs this is how I fell asleep) This nisayan is the hardest nisayan I have ever faced. Its my toughest battle thus far. Its life changing.And I must take on the battle.

But and here is the big but, if one neglects fighting the toughest battle of his life you can't call that selfish. At least in my books, selfish is not generally used in the context of requiring someone to take on a battle that alters his entire life and one that he may never win. I think courage may be a more proper word to use.

Big Moish seems to suggest that unless I admit its selfish I am close minded and will never win. I don't know that this is the most crucial aspect of recovery. I would venture to say that unless you admit you have an illness and realize that you are not in control of the situation is far more important.

Just to recap either way this behavior must be tackled. And its wrong to all parties involved. And as I often said whats worse is that its progressive and is never satisfied. But I am sorry its not selfish

as another side note you write;

"There can be no doubt that the actual act of masturbation is a selfish act. yes so might be eating, although eating can sometimes be for the purpose of having energy to serve others. that is because there is an actuall positive benefit from eating.
there is no positive benefit from masturbation other than pleasure. It is usually some kind of sexual pleasure but i guess it might also be the pleasure of settling down an itch (Although I didn't reall understand how ejaculation makes the itch go away, but I will take your word for it) In that scenario it is still a pleasure that only you are benefiting from - comfort. comfort is also a pleasure. and you are the only one that is benefitting from going to sleep without the itch as opposed to going to sleep with the itch. "

Your anlaysis to eating is head on. So eating is benefical because it gives us energy to serve others. Sleep also gives us energy. Without sleep I can't serve others as well. Well without masterbating I can't sleep at night. And yes I am very tired the next day and can't serve others. Does that make it right? Of course not. Too bad don't sleep but don't sin. realize that these are the choices I currrently face. (I hope this goes away after time but right now these are my choices) So is it selfish to sleep at nite? No. Again I am not negating the importance to work on it. I am simply negating the selfish concept.

I couldn't care less about what you think is selfish or not. Your personal opinion on what is perhaps a side issue may not even affect your ability to recover one bit.

My entire point was that when someone claims to be in a desperate state, he does not just throw away potential methods of recovery because of his unwillingness to see another opinion.
You could have been talking about whether or not you like broccoli, for all I care. But you state so definitively that you refuse to change your mind, without so much as bothering to "taste" it.

Ergo, you are not desperate.

Moish, I am not sure that realizing one is selfish is a potential "method of recovery". Its a feeling that some people have (and rightfuly so for some) as to why the need to recover. but its not a method of recovery.

Re before "I taste it". I tasted it for tow nites now. I am glad and proud of my good work and I hope to keep it up. I am very far from recovery but I did "taste" it. And one thing I will say over and over. We must fight this battle. But its a big push nd requires lots of mesiras nefesh. I wouldn't call one lacks the power for this great mesiars nefesh selfish