Gevura Shebyesod wrote:


Gevura,
Thanks, but I need some more clarification only because I haven't yet reached that level of giving/controlling lust.

If it was only about giving, I could receive the same pleasure from bringing her breakfast in bed, if that was something she really wanted. There is a distinct type of pleasure associated with these organs we receive when engaged in this action. Is that pleasure supposed to be entirely negated?

No, but we are supposed to receive, not take.

"Of course we are supposed to have pleasure but the pleasure is supposed to come from giving to the other. "

"No, but we are supposed to receive, not take."

But thats my question who says that your staement is accuarate? Why can't I have pleasure from taking? Why can't I take while I give? You say it like its a given source and it mus be that way. Of course if I only take or if my taking harms the other party then my giving is worthless. But otheriwse why not take?

And if we are only "recieving" why does my wife need makeup?

I will point out that yes as addicts lust is an obsession. If my intimacy is an obsession its dangerous.

More importantly, I think you guys are overkilling it. Yes GYE is a holy community thus we live up to higher standards. And as addicts we want to fully surrender lust. But come on every rav or rosh yeshiva will tell you that there is an element of lust with one's wife.

Sorry waydown, I think Gevura is correct. I wish I had more experience with the cleaner side of living to be able to explain it better, but in my limited experience, lust has no place in a Jewish home.

Gevura - this sounds like a very tricky balance. We engage in an action that by the rules of nature is extremely pleasurable, yet we are supposed to be able to do so ignoring our pleasure and focusing on the giving. Is that what you're saying?
Can you give me more details on the distinction between lust and physical attraction?
For example, there can be a physical arousal generated by an emotional bonding. What's that about?

For someone who is used to indulging in pleasure it is difficult. With a handful of victories under my belt (no pun intended ) I have seen that it's possible, but it's like a muscle that needs a lot of time and working out to get it to the level it should be, kind of like PT or OT for someone who was in an accident. Without getting too graphic, it's easier in the beginning but as things progress, it gets harder to retain that focus.

One small example that separates the true lover from the luster;

Many a wife like mine are often too tired even on Mikva night

A luster would cajole twist and convince his partner to be partially awake so as fulfill his lust every night or 2 that he possibly can

A lover can say
"Darling I want to have sex with you but only when you can enjoy it which is when you're not tired. How about we plan for once a week and that day you try rest in the afternoon? Friday night you're always too tired, so forget about that night..."

I believe lusters would have a hard time doing this.

Waydown what's your thoughts

Sorry but I feel a little like way down about this point,

Hashem gave us a wife so it should save us from sin,
That still stands for something,

Besides why did rav chisda teach his daughters how to arouse thair husband,

I think there is some clarification needed

Markz, I think that's a good start but not close to what Gevura is saying.
Reason being, it's a lot easier to make the choice of love over lust before the action starts. Also, for the ibber chochom luster, it makes more sense to schedule a good time than try to make it happen, if experience has taught that this provides a better lust experience.
It's just the luster using delayed gratification in order to obtain a better instant gratification

Arye b.g.l. wrote:


Coooooooooooooordnoy, where are you? Confused in Seattle calling.

Oh yeah, it's Erev YK, maybe he's busy???

Arye b.g.l. wrote:


Maybe he wasn't teaching them what to do, he was teaching them what not to do. Do you know where the Gemara is?

This topic is soooo my cup of tea, but I just don't have time to read and certainly not to respond. Just a quick point which since I haven't really read the comments, I don't know if it's relevant. It says הן בעון חוללתי ובחטא יחמתני אמי. And that's is even for someone like Yishai who never committed a sin. It's just the nature of the act that it must involve a degree of selfishness, (everyone by his madraiga, of course).

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


Maybe after Yomtov, you would elaborate? Do you have a thread where this has been discussed previously?

רב חסדא לבנותיו: "נקיט מרגניתא בחדא ידיה, וכורא בחדא ידיה. מרגניתא - אחוי להו, וכורא לא אחוי להו..שבת קמ

Thanks, I'll check what the Mesivta has to say about it. I knew the quote just not the maare makom, and as you see he was also telling them what not to do, so it's debatable without further research what his intention was.

Of course but when you shukel lulav you do it with all you got,

I believe this mitzva requires no less

Arye b.g.l. wrote:


We have to start quoting in our responses because now I have no idea which post this is in response to.