Moish some are like as you explained while others like me are not.

No we can't treat our wives as "objects to staistfy our lust". Thats is wrong and terrible. but some of us have found it helpful to steer some of that lust towards a more kosher manner. My wife appreciates the fact the I lust for her. Of course with caution and don't use it as a crutch. But I have found it to be a useful tool if used in moderation to channel lust towards her. Like I mentioned earlier mots of our wives want there husband to appreciate their good looks. I love my mother to no end. But I have no lust for her. If its all love why care about looks. The answer is, there needs to be a moderate amount of lust channeled towards ones wife.

Battle ready, thanks for the chizuk. And I think anyone on GYE is lready not "waydown". Lust is the hardest thing to tackel. It dangels all around us. Alchohlics don't encounter vodka everywhere they go. Sexaholics encounter tavious wherever we tred. Being serious about tackling this addiction is "wayup"!

oh and Mosih noones says do more of that to help our lust. But realizing that we have so much good in our own home and saving it for when it can be done kosherly maybe somewhat of a tool. Again tred carefully how this tool is used.

Battle Ready wrote:
Scientific support, please?

waydown wrote:

What is the difference between using you wife to satisfy your lust, which describe as terrible, and steering lust toward a more kosher manner, i.e. using your wife to satisfy your lust?



If the only difference between your love for your mom and your live for your wife is lust, you have weird marriage. The live from your mom is one of dependence, the one for your kids is about providing and the one for your wife should be about sharing and therefore at the highest level, at least that is my opinion.

Moish,

I don't know science. But I can tell you physcailly the body craves for it at certian points. In fact if you want a torah proof, the reason you can't eat meat, eggs (I think the 3r d one is cheese) on erev yom kippur is because after eating certain foods the body is more pron to desire sex. We don't want that on yom kippur. So battle ready is suggesting that its perfectly normal for a body to physcailly have a certain stronger craving at times. Its not all just in the mind.

Whew! this forum is getting HEATED!

some pointers:
1) the high divorce rate is indicative OF morals. if it wasn't immoral why are people DIVORCING! it's totally fine to be cheating!

2) That cheating website you mentioned is one of the most morally corrupt websites in the world. taking advice from its CEO is like listening to a porn star saying it's moral to buy porn because you are supporting people.

3) you seem to be saying that w/o religion you would be fine. so that means that your religion makes your life unmanageable b/c that is the make it or break it factor. now it makes sense why you are involving religion into the equation, and why all of us addicts (or wtvr moish considers himself) are responding. b/c for us our LIVES are unmanageable, not our religion. religion may add to the guilt but even if we weren't religious we would still need help and we would still not have a normal life. that realization is what helped many of us get sober. (as serenity said it worked for him previously)

4) i was not saying that you shouldn't be clean for yom kippur, i was merely saying one day at a time. for me, relying on external factors to keep me sober never worked. it is also not the reason why i need to be sober. (ayin shom l'eil)

5) a very big reason why i am sober currently (one day at a time) is because i realized that my higher power loves me no matter what i do. i mentioned it earlier in the forum because i was trying to give chizzuk, i apologize if i worded it incorrectly.

i hope that you aren't taking these posts the wrong way. we mean no harm and we just wanna help.

Thanks Shlomo,

My point is that your LIVES or MY LIFE is unmangable because religon is part & parcel of my life. It is what I am. I believe in a borai olim and believe its right and brings to ultimate happiness. Yes it makes my life unmanagable but I am not sad or upset about it. I think its a good thing. Religon is what holds me back from doing right & wrong. As a side note, my day yesterday tzom gadlya was unmanagable. I can't function when I fast. Yet I am proud of my religon and not sad about that.

To be honest I don't know what I would do without being religous. Perhaps I would still feel like life is unmanagable perhaps not. I am only suggesting that maybe my life would not be unmanagable. I can debate your other points but I want to stick to the main point.. Bottom line is again my example with the cheating website zwas just a moshol to show you how without religon you wouldn't necessarly deem pursuing lust as bad. Maybe some of us would have enough sechel. Would I have enough sechel to realize the truth? I don't know.

One more side point re religon. Due to total side factors my religon has protected me from completley falling. When chatting with women they typically ask me so what do you do on your free time? What should I say I learn daf yomi and wake up 615 for selichos? How do I spend my weekends? Well in shul in the morning Then I eat cholent watch my kids then go back to shul to learn & daven. Ok so what are my hobbies? I have no time for hobbies. Pop Culture? I know nothing about that. Ok looks? I have a cholent boch and I am bald. You get my drift. Religon has shletered me from the outside world. And I am proud of that. Thank you hashem for making it so nearly impossible to mingle with those outside my religon. Again its part & parcel of me.

Yes I agree with the one day at a time. And in fact for me the 90 days is way to tall of a moutain to conquer as I truely do need to take the one day at a time approach. But at the same time if there is some extra push telling me that there is something special coming my way after a short amount of time then even though I take the one day at a time approach it adds the extra stimulus needed.

Yes religion does have amazing parts to it, including the indirect outcomes. i resonate with that.

i will now proceed to shut my beak. (unless there's something REALLY juicy)

hatzlacha raba

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bigmoish wrote:



FYI the SA principle is that sex is optional-there is no physical need for the body to ejaculate. That should be some comfort for those of us in "sexless" marriages or otherwise not able to have sex.

There is never a "physical need" But there are defintley times when the desire and hormones are at higher levels. Of course its not like going the bathroom. There is no must. But when the desire is at high levels its extremley difficult to surrender or fight whatever your apporach is. Again thats why on erev yom kippur you can't eat certain foods.

wow! so much to talk about.
waydown

Someone who practically memorized the white book and has made great strides wrote this a while back
serenty

Our desire should be for our wives (the plural was referring to many of "us", not of the wives )and they will hopefully appreciate it. But lust means objectifying them as a tool. No one likes to be used, and certainly not ladies. I don't think you meant that your wife appreciates being viewed as an object even if technically mutar, You probably meant that she appreciates when you have a desire for her. But if desire is all that we had, none of us would be spending so much time on gye. Our issue is that we lust (as the dictionary says above "uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite; lecherousness.") and don't simply desire. We need to keep the lust away from our wives, or else they are going to start resenting it and us and getting disgusted by it.

(I took a liberty here in writing "I don't think you meant... You probably meant...". I hope I didn't offend you by putting words into your mouth. Please correct me if I'm wrong)

Stillgoing very well said.

If I can just take my case for example. I will only speak for myself. Some days (today happens to be one of them) my hormomones and itch (Cordnoy labeled it as a misquito bit itch almost) are high. I am now faced with two choices. Search for porn that I am so in the mood of. Or tel myself save those desires for tonight. Mix that with love. Rather the viewing porn let me refrain because tonight I will be able to use that desire in such a purrer and more valuable manner. I have no clue if I am really using my strong desire tonight or lust. But it helps me by saying that the itch down below has a pas basola in a permitted lovable manner with someone who is attractive. The terms are just getting too technical for me. Sorry if I am a bit blunt in spellignout my thought process.

waydownup

I'm not sure if I really understand the scenario. Let's say that a person has a desire to be mz"l. An itch, hormones, cheese or whatever the cause, perhaps he should, as you write "tell myself save those desires for tonight. Mix that with love." but I would think that he wouldn't need the p___ to act out if he is already in the mood right then. So maybe the scenario is that he is in the mood to view improperly dressed people (to put it mildly), but then saving it for his wife would in essence be labeling her as a p____ star. The former may just be a sexual desire, but the latter seems to me to be straight out lust.

"If circumstances warrant, we ask our wives or
friends to join us in morning meditation. If we belong
to a religious denomination which requires a definite
morning devotion, we attend to that also. If not members
of religious bodies, we sometimes select and
memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the
principles we have been discussing. There are many
helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be
obtained from one’s priest, minister, or rabbi. Be
quick to see where religious people are right. Make
use of what they offer. " AA