I think that if I was still holding onto the idea that I could have lust if I wasn't frum, or if I wasn't married, or if I could stay sober for 90 days etc etc, I'd be having a very hard time.

So right now, I still believe that currently as a frum jew, if I were frei perhaps I'd be able to live with my lust. (I say perhaps because who really knows if's) So does that mean that I can't recover till I think life is unmanagable without the religous aspect?? And how do I surrender if I don't necessarly believe that? Am I a lost case then? I don't know that I don't believe it either. Its really theoretical.

I kind of stopped worrying about what I belive and more worry about what I do . As a practical matter you are frum and you want to stop. So maybe let go of the idea of what would happen, if you weren't frum.

I agree with you Serenity. But this conversation started because someone suggested that I not think about being clean till for eseres yima teshuva. He said I should leave judiasm out of the equation. To that I say I can't do that. Part of what I am and what makes it unmanagable is that I am a frum jew. Therefore part of my tackling lust will be mixed with jewish fundamentals such as being a better jew during aseres yimi teshuva

As a side note,just some pointers re mixing being a frum jew to the lust addiction.

1) For news junkies like me, an online dating website for married people was recently hacked. The hackers claimed to be on a misson. They told the site, either shut down or we will expose the cheaters. Natrually they did not shut down and cheaters were exposed. The CEO of the site was on the radio explaining the morality of his company. He claimed that he actually preserves family values and lives. He claimed many are stuck in loveless marriages. By finding an outlet outside marriage it allows one to live with his loveless marraige and preserve his marriage without divorcing. Lesson from this story, moral values and self consciousness can be twisted any way you want. Those of us frum jews have a torah and g-d that tell us whats right or wrong. Of course its the morally correct way. But we can't live our life soley on morality.
2) Try googling is it cheating to masterbate about other women. Is it cheating to flirt with coworkers etc.. Again our torah tell us right from wrong.
3) GYE itself in its ads promotes the mix. They have a very nice cartoon with a guy shaking the ravs hand and saying do you feel like faker? For a guy like me that does learn alot and is a well respected person in my community it reasonated.

What I am getting at is, that I think its clear part of what makes life unmanageable is our higher moral standards. I don't know what I would be if not for the moral standards. Is it unmanagable if there is no gold standard for morality? Sure high level people such as Clinton ruined their lives even without coming onto moral issues. (As a side note, if I would be Clinton would I be better? As a lust addict myself, I don't think so. After all she intiated it. Thats what I have in mind when I say al tivanu lidi nisyan). But your typical joe shmo has no higher standard to adhere to necessarly.

Sorry Cordnoy I went way over my 140 character limit. Maybe I'll start a tweeter feed for you so that I keep it short. I'll call it #lust!

waydown wrote:

Interesting that you accept the definition of morality offered by the CEO of company helping people cheat on their spouses...

waydown wrote:

Better idea: Don't google these things. Please. (Or anything that cordnoy says that you don't understand, for that matter )

waydown wrote:

Well, would you have clicked on the link otherwise? No! So really, GYE just knows that us lying addicts think of ourselves in a certain way, and they use it to get us in the door. But who says that's the truth? You can't prove "truth" from an advertising campaign. Just what people want to see.

Moish my point was not to believe the CEO of that cheating website but rather to show what happens when you don't mix judiasm with what right or wrong and you simply look at moral consciousness is to what makes life unmanagable it won't work.

You got me on #3 but I stille think there is an es pas nisht aspect of what makes it unmanagable.

Most goyim do not consider that to be moral. When someone takes a marriage vow, even an atheist, no accepted definition of "morality" can include extramarital sexual activity. My point was that if you were a goy you would choose a definition that is not even accepted by most goyim.

oh yes how about "open marriages"? Or why can't I just divorce? Thats more of a norm.

Moreover, would I be married as a goy? I work with a upper class single 40 yr old goy. He likes to go the beach and party and choose not to marry so he can party.

My point is that being jewish is part of what I am. I can't detach the two when combating lust

You seem to be confusing two concepts:
1) Morality
2) Common occurrence

Although among goyim, the definition of "morality" changes with time and differs among people, certain things are still (surprisingly) in today's society considered "amoral."
Certain things have become accepted, like homosexuality, and premarital sex among willing and consenting individuals.
But when the actions hurt someone else, it's hard to see how they would accepted by society. Murder, theft, assault, etc. have never been accepted.
Cheating on a wife and breaking marriage vows (leaving aside "open marriages," because that was never the subject of this conversation), has never been considered "moral."

Open marriages is part of the subject. Because my point is if I would not a frum jew I would perhaps find a way to make it morally correct thereby making it "amoral". That can be open marriages are a divorce. Once I have no conscious my lust won't bother me as much.

Again I am proud to be a jew. And I know that lust is not ultimate happiness. But I only know that because I am a frum yid.

To clarify, and, this is already getting way off topic, "amoral" means "NOT moral."
And, I actually used it incorrectly, because really it means "not having any connection to morality." I should have used "immoral."

One more pointer re lust & judiasm. One of the foundations towards succeding is via surrendering to a higher power. There are some who will say you don't need judiasm for that. But I don't see how that makes sense ligically. An athiest believes that there is no higher power.So who the heck am I surrendering to? Is it just soe abrcadbra? But we know that there is a borai olim. He creates lust he can take away lust. Nothing happens without his will. He wants us to try as hard as we can and he will do the rest.
.כּי לא תחפּוץ בּמות הרשׁע כּי אם בּשׁוב מדרכּו וחי
So its only with my jewish fundamentales that surrender works.

Now when is it an es ratzon to try hard to do whats right. During eseres yima teshuva. Thats why I want to make even a stronger effort to stay clean during these 10 days.(including avoiding even lite triggers that perhaps I should but don't do a whole yr) I feel that the extra effort will allow my surrenderness to be that much more effective.

I need to mix my jewish beliefs with my struggle.

Way Down, you are a Holy Yid. Not at all way down. Here's what may help: make a solemn vow to cut off "MZ" cold turkey no matter how big your desire. Thankfully, you are married and can healthily be together with your wife when she is permitted. The body starts feeling the need when their is a build up of zera - it's completely normal! Don't stress out. Be happy and enjoy your marriage. The most you will need to last in any stretch is only 12-14 days. Your wife will appreciate your sincerity and your spiritual connection will intensify when you save yourself only for her.

Battle Ready, are you aware that there are many addicts on this site?
Many of our wives are not interested in being with us because we have distorted sexuality into a twisted fantasy.
Instead of treating our wives properly we have treated them as objects to satisfy our lust.
More of that is not going to solve the problem.

Also:

Welcome!
Why don't you start your own thread and tell us about your struggle?