Hi! how are you? I am having trouble not picturing some of the graphic details the gemora sometimes brings. I am following the Daf Yomi, and well... we just started seder nashim. any suggestions? I feel so bad thinking that learning can turn into something not very kodesh.

I can relate. I'm generally ok now, but I had the same problem.

any pointers?

Work on recovery, and it will go away or at least diminish, by itself.

There are great tzadikim who say that no davar shebikdushah can lead to a dvar tumah; if that's accurate, the tumah then is comin' from elsewhere....as Gibbor said: Work on recovery and the rest will fall into place.

b'hatzlachah

btw: tomorrow's daf is about veggies, goards, bread and bittul.

haha yup, it was a nice break from the other "detailed sugyios". do you recommend skiping nashim until one is recovered? i.e. jump to nezikin and then catch up next year?

This is an important question. My shiur is several weeks behind, and we just learned some of the most graphic descriptions of the sex act in all of Shas. Generally it seems that speaking about these things in the context of a serious halachic discussion helps to not think lewd thoughts. But what if it has the opposite effect, like you seem to be experiencing. I'm going to ask around and see what my teacher and colleagues have to say on this.

breakingthehabit wrote:


No; as I wrote above; tumah doesn't come from kedushah.

If you would tell me that youre not goin' out of your house again until you recover, for you me see an object of your desire....then perhaps.
if you will tell me that youre avoidin' the internet at all costs, until recovery.... then perhaps.
Meanwhile, what do you wanna do? Skip learnin' until recovery?
I don't think so.

Look at it this way. The Gemara deals with every detail of a Jew's life-we just tend to focus on Brachos and Seder Moed. Seder Nashim tells us how to relate properly to the opposite gender and the consequences of improper relations. Rambam includes Issurei Biah and Maacalos Asuros in Seder Kedusha of the Yad to tell us how a Jew achieves Kedusha-in his relations with the opposite gender and how and what he eats. When the Gemara is discussing cases which would otherwise be of the unprintable nature, one should always be aware that Chazal and Rishonim rejected both Greco Roman hedonism and ascetiscm that the disciples of Oso Ish championed, and that the cases discussed in the Gemara represent what happens in the instance of improper behavior. There is a Meiri that suggests that such cases are merely a Heci Timtza, but as far as I know that is a Daas Yachid, and one can certainly question that BAD WORD REMOVEDa based upon what he know of the interaction between Chazal and the Greco Roman culture, and their view of the same.

I asked my Maggid Shiur today about this, after we had some especially graphic discussions in Perek Haba Al Yevimto (we're very behind). He said the the Amshinaver Rebbe says that learning these sugyos is just the thing needed to purify the thoughts. Instead of thinking about these things in a lewd way, we think about them in the context of Torah, Halacha, and Kedusha. So it is a tikun for these thoughts. He said that the Noda BeYehuda has some Teshuvos in Even HaEzer along the same lines. I haven't found them yet, will let you know if I find more. I hope this is helpful.

Thank you all! this is very helpful. When i said to skip through nashim i meant to learn nezikin or kodshin instead, until I am doing better with this.
I liked what your maggid shiur said EyesAnon

Today I clarified with the maggid shiur what he meant about the Noda BeYehuda, because I couldn't find any teshuvos on Hirhurim, only a lot of cases about women who commited Znus and cheated and things like that. He said that what the Amshinaver said was to learn those Teshuvos because they are on those topics, and that will channel these thoughts to Torah and Mitzvos. He agreed the the same should apply to learning Yevamos, especially פרק הבא על יבמתו.

Why skip Seder Nashim? The Torah prescibes a Mitzvas Onah, and the Ramban in Shemos 21:9 points out that unlike the Persians, we don't perform "marital obligations" in our clothes. We know that Gdolei Rishonium wrote works that would be considered graphic and explicit if not for the fact that they were enabling a Jewish man how to perform the Mitzvas Onah in a manner that pleased himself and his wife. The Talmud also recounts a story of one Amora who hid under his rebbe's bed, until he was discovered by his rebbe, and explained that he wanted to learn from his rebbe how to perform Tashmish Hamitah. The fact that the Torah views Onah as a mitzah and devotes long sugyos to the subject is a far cry from the approach of the secular world.