That's it!!

Since there has been a bit of "surrender" talk around, it would be helpful to hear how people define "surrender" from their experience.

What does "Surrender" mean to you?

Surrendering means:

To admit I have an issue that I haven't been able to resolve, no matter how hard I tried.

To admit that once having a taste of the stuff, I usually get totally obsessed with it, unable to get enough.

To have total trust in Hashem that the way events unfold in my life, are for my own good. I have a very limited view of how things fit. Hashem sees the whole picture and is orchestrating things for my benefit, even when I don't understand how that is so.

thanks for bringing this up, and for trying to explain this important topic.

1 and 2 are similar to each other, and I basically get it; although it is more for a true addict, but it is probably similar to a fellow who does these things constantly as well.

3 is bitachon, and of course that helps for everything.

Sounds good to me

Thanks skep, just one interesting note, you didn't mention "surrender" anywhere in that post (yeah, I know, I mean after the first time).

This is what I have been seeing in my experience lately (and it may change, dunno)
When I first saw "surrender" i right away thought "two parties fighting, one surrenders, the other wins. first party looses." that didn't sound very good.

What I later realized (don't know if I am right) is that the story is different. "somebody has possession of something, somebody else wants it, person number one "surrenders" that thing to the latter".

I (the sick part of me) wants to run to lust when I need to feel good, to have it available at those times. Hashem wants us to realize that He is the one who makes us feel right, He is behind everything, and we should be running to Him. So I "surrender" the lust, to Hashem. I tell Him that I am ready to accept Him in those times, I am ready not to be able to run to lust, and to be there with Him wherever He so chooses to place me.

It is not only "surrendering to...", it is more "surrendering of...."

Surrendering of lust, and ultimately surrendering of myself, to Hashem.

and now for some uncertainess, is that "right"? I know that if it speaks to me it's right, but I want to know Do others relate?

Edit: and Talking to Hashem fits in perfectly with that!

I'll be the next contestant to take a stab at it.

I like to be in control and run my life (of course I'm careful to tell everyone (including Hashem) that I am an eved Hashem, and he runs the world, but of course I know the real truth ).

Anyway, I think surrender means. I have tried running my life my way, and it doesn't work very well. I surrender my life to G-d to run it as he sees fit. I will do what He wants, not what I want.

So, I am surrendering my life, my desires, etc to Him.

Quite surprisingly, life is more fulfilling and enjoyable when I give up what I want for what He wants.

Pidiani you say I think a lot?! Great question, very thought provoking, especially for someone like me who is just starting out. I was under the impression that "surrendering"was the concept found on this past week's parsha.

We all know that Yosef HaTzadik almost succumbed to Eishes Potiphar until he saw his father's countenance to which he was unable to continue. The question is raised that is he was indeed ready to succumb why was he considered to have done such a great act (I.e. that Chazak say krias yam suf was because is this zchus)?

The Dubno Magid explains that we have a perception problem. We feel that we need to beat the yetzer hara. This its wrong because "we"never do; we try our hardest and Hashem helps us do the rest. Here Hashem instead took away the Nisayon from Yosef because he did everything he could. Same root different v approach.

My point is that surrendering means we our giving up "our" fight. Because we never beat the y"h; we do the best we can and then Hashem helps us. By thinking that we've lost the battle after we tried so hard isn't accurate. We simply have to try and use the strength that Hashem gives us. By thinking that "we"are the players we are basically saying we don't need Hashems help. Not sure this is different from Gibbor's response but thought I would throw itout there.

Gibbor,
Thank you
You have said this many times here.
I have asked the following question several times before.

How?

I will not do what I want; I will do what He wants....but how?

I know you have answered this before, and truth be told, the question does not bother me so much any more, for I now use the "living by the moment" principle.... by saying, "God, I know I cannot overcome this long term; perhaps not even short term, but do me a favor please, for I cannot do this....please remove this obstacle that is in front of me now from me. Thank you."

And lately, the obstacle is no longer there.

Did I surrender?
I haven't the slightest idea, but who cares?

gibbor120 wrote:


%100

I guess i should have added this, The real thing that wasn't entirely clear is what "surrendering LUST" means. How would you define that specific term (and any other specific, as opposed to life in general)

Well, lust is just another desire of mine (my will) that I have to give up/surrender.

Surrender, means I have been doing what I want until now, it's time for me to give it up and do what G-d wants.

I think part of it is just being honest. We all think we are doing G-ds will, but often times we try to fit G-ds will into our will. Like, I'm sure G-d wants me to eat that extra slice of pizza, take a nap, etc. so I'll have more koach to learn later. We are very good at making G-ds will fit into to what we want to do.

Kids do it all the time and we can see right through it. As adults, we do the same thing, we just hide it a lot better.

Ok, how? Here is where I think friends (or a sponsor) come in. The only way to really know what G-d wants is to be completely open and honest with someone else, and take their advice. Another person, is impartial and is in a much better position to judge what G-d really wants. We are then able to humbly surrender to His will.

One more point. I struggled with the thougth of "why couldn't Hashem just have made it mutar to stare at women etc."? Wouldn't life have been a lot easier. When I would give up looking at porn or masturbating for the umpteenth time, invariably I'd end up in a situation where I was triggered and would say (in my mind) to G-d, "it's not fair, why do you put me in such an unbearable situation"?

I would struggle with "I want to look". "But I'm not allowed to look". "But I want to look".

Surrender means I understand that G-d designed the world, and if he says that I am better off not looking, than who am I to argue. Obviously, G-d knows best. I will surrender my judgement and accept his. That makes the struggle easier. It removes the self-pity.

So instead of struggling with "why can't it be mutar"? It's now, "I need to let go" Hashem knows better that this is no good for me.

Am I making any sense at all?

But I'm not sure how that definition of surrendering lust isn't first saying don't be lustful because that's not what Hashem wants. Which I thought is exactly what we're not supposed to do?

I could be wrong, but I think surrender is a general attitude of giving our lives over to G-d. Lust is just one example.

The 12 steps doesn't deal with lust directly. It deals with living right.

sirclean wrote:


There is a marginal difference, I think.

What we shouldn't say is "I want to, (and want to be able to want to,) but Hashem doesn't let".

When we surrender we are admitting "even though I desire it, meaning my body wants it, and I can't shake it off I don't want to!!" because i know that Hashem is the only real thing, and that lust has only hurt me in the past and will continue to do so.

So I surrender my desire which I have now in order to make my life better, to the way Hashem is controlling my life, perfectly.

(and that is why Hashem doesn't want me too, because lusting is me seperating myself from that connection "Hashem is controlling everything in my life")

The way I have heard dov explain the 3rd step (which he says is really the main step) is - "kol mah diavid rachmana letav avid". What gets us into trouble is trying to do things our way. Not trusting and listening to Hashem's instructions.

I compare it to what the mussar seforim say about bitachon. If a person has bitachon, there is no room for stress. Hashem takes care of the world. We are only stressed because we think "if only I would xyz, things would be different". So our level of stress is dependant on our level of bitachon.

So overcoming addiction is has a lot to do with having emunah. It removes the RID, and allows us to live without anxiety. It allows us to accept whatever Hashem brings our way. Because He is in control and He knows what is best.

If we try to make a living with our own strenght and smarts and don't rely on Hashem - he says "you think you can do it on your own, ok, give it a shot". When we say "we realize it is all you, and we cannot do it on our own" G-d says, Ok, I'll do it for you. (obviously with our hishtadlus - The way I understand hishtadlus is that is just covers that fact that it is really all from Hashem.)