I think the idea is to try and move the woman from being an object of lust to one of pity. Don't fantasize about her, rather feel sad that she may know no better. This is especially true in the outside world where everything is sexualized and deemed ok. Ashrecha to be a Jew and know that this behavior is wrong. Knowledge is power, and we have it. So would you not feel sorry for a lady who may not be aware of the incredible damage she causes when she dresses and acts immodestly?

I will let those smarter than me answer that question; I'm not sure that's what the previous poster had in mind, but that makes little difference to your question.

shomer bro wrote:


No it isn't, and no we don't. For just look around at all the frum masturbaters who are here and still hiding behind 'usernames' and not being really honest and still masturbating themselves while hiding it from everybody in their lives, even their own wives. 'Meshaneh mipnei hashalom has become the 11th commandment all of a sudden. And look at all the kollel guys and even some roshei kollel I know personally who are having sex with themselves and/or with prostitutes on a 'painful' - but still regular! - basis, while posting here and fighting, fighting, fighting. They 'know' it all. And they are still failures...powerless.

Knowledge is more often the tool we use in order to pretend to ourselves that we have power.

Now, acceptance of the facts...that's another story completely. That is power.

But acceptance only comes with openness with other safe, real people. Using our real names and telling the whole truth about ourselves to somebody in person without a bag over our heads for 'chillul Hashem'. Rabban Yochanan ben Zakai knew this when he taught his talmidim (who were tanno'im) in the last lesson of his life: With all our frumkeit, we do not take Hashem nearly as seriously as we take even a goy standing in the street, who sees us. (Gm' Brachos) And more than anything else, that's why people here do not find what they seek - the problem we have is hiding and faking, not desiring and losing.

So let's get together more often and talk on the phone, meet face to face, open up to real people and each other more and completely, and people will get better...rather than get smarter.

One more thing (now that I probably p.o.'d you good and fine already ) and because you seem like a really nice guy:

'Pitying' these ladies we worship, is just a sign that we still hold them in great esteem so we need to try and deny it by putting them down. Heh. Here we are drooling over her and dying to follow her around some more to get another precious (it is precious) look at her pretty behind or face or hair waving by...and we really think we will 'pity her'? You may want to reconsider that. She's sitting on a throne for us, with us feeling her feminine power and allure - and we really think we have a shot at looking down on her? It's a trick of the mind. It's just a way to try and deny the truth that we worship her and give our power away to her, keseider.

We love these peoples' images, and the more pritzusdik they are dressed the more we struggle not to look - cuz they attract us so!

Instead, as I have posted many times elsewhere, we pray for them because Hashem cares for them and loves them, too, of course. And by the way, He alone knows their true madreigo of morality. Were they raised pritzusly? Then He (as Rav Dessler explains in chelek 1 of Michtav M'Eliyahu) judges them fairly...who knows? Maybe you and I are actually on a lower relative madreigo than this goy? Yes, it is true.

And we do not pray for them to do Teshuvah (as though we are any better than they are and more holy). That would just respond to fantasy and desire with arrogance. Rather, we pray for them to be granted all the things Hashem wants us to care about people for (mefarnesin, melavin, vekovrim akum k'yisroel - Gm Gittin): food, shelter, real love and healthy relationships and all good, including health and even a good death (Gm' Brachos).

And anyhow, do you really think these pretty secretaries, nurses, and shoppers who dress pritzusdik do it because deep down inside they are tying to attract guys to desire them and get sex?! Not so. What do you think will happen if we'd smile at one of them and try patting her on the behind or propositioning her? She will slap you or me in the face and call the police! Quickly indeed will her dignity be clear...more dignity than I ever had in my acting out, to be sure.

Rather, they are just doing what they learn...as you and I are just doing what we learn - we see porn and pretty women and want to see more of them and sneak it. We discover that masturbating ourselves leads to orgasm and we want to have it again and do so, even though it is a sin - cuz we have learned that there is nothing else like it. We just do what we learn, too.

Knowledge of these things about ourselves...maybe that's some power...maybe. If it leads us to taking real steps toward sobriety and recovery.

Sorry for coming on so strong...but I'm cranky.

Thanks Dov! Every now and then, it's good to have someone shake me up and point out what I'm doing or thinking wrong. You're right that knowledge isn't power because then very few of us would be here.