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TOPIC: Tryin' 278072 Views

Re: Tryin' 18 May 2017 14:14 #313516

  • mesayin
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Workingguy wrote on 17 May 2017 23:30:

Mesayin wrote on 17 May 2017 18:19:

Workingguy wrote on 17 May 2017 14:51:

Mesayin wrote on 17 May 2017 13:57:

GrowStrong wrote on 17 May 2017 13:55:

Mesayin wrote on 17 May 2017 13:49:

Workingguy wrote on 17 May 2017 00:24:

Mesayin wrote on 16 May 2017 21:56:

Shlomo24 wrote on 16 May 2017 21:52:
Self-esteem is overrated.

And your evidence for that?

Esteem as a verb means the value that you have for yourself and the respect you feel or show to yourself. Self esteem means to self value and respect. I would think he would know how much he values and respects himself.

And Cordnoy is right as well- some people have issues because they feel highly about themselves  and sort of feel they are entitled to act out or basically, their arrogance is what gets them in trouble. 

You obviously haven't studied about self esteem. Every psychology book I have read and every lecture I have heard says that a high self esteem makes a lower ego and less arrogance and more humility.

I can only talk from my personal experience.
My self esteem is very high and my ego is larger.

Miscommunication here.

The self esteem you are referring might not be the same self esteem that is referred to psychology.

So to clarify- because I haven't even really understood who you've been commenting to and who the miscommunication has been with- there are indeed two different things that I was talking about.

One is self esteem from a psychological perspective, as you pointed out. Indeed, when people have a healthy sense of self/self esteem, it indeed CAN help them refrain from acting out, because it is beneath them. The Torah is very clear about that as well- someone who really believes he is a prince will not hang out in the gutter. 

And indeed, such a person can have more room to be humble, generous, etc. And Shlomo, I personally have found that when I've been able to feel better about myself, I don't act out because I think it doesn't make sense for who I am. 

But Mesayin, the point I was making is that Cordnoy would know whether he holds himself in esteem or not, and by that I meant by the literal definition of the word.

And I want to add one thing- as someone who's been in therapy for five years, and has 25 psychology books in my bathroom alone and is overly psychological (as many of my posts show), don't believe everything that psychology tells you. 

There are people who have very healthy self esteem and are still self centered, selfish, etc. Think about it this way- the Torah is very against arrogance. But we know that according to psychology, arrogant people have low self esteem and it's coming because they have a hole to fill. So how come we say that HaShem says He can't reside in the same world as such a person?

And some answer like you might- that it's because he has such a low image of himself that HaShem won't hang with him. 

But the real answer according to most is that sometimes, people have a high level of self esteem that would meet the psychological criteria and yet are selfish.

There are numerous sources that indicate this- that a person can misunderstand his role in the world Davis because he has healthy self esteem- and that he has to channel his self esteem to make him interested in others. 

I hear and I respect your knowledge about this.

However, Rabbi Dr. A.J. Twerski has written a ton of books about self esteem and seems to be convinced that a healthy self esteem creates selflessness and not selfishness (I dislike fish by the way). The aforementioned Dr. Dovid Lieberman also preaches that.

I am compelled to think that way too unless I get facts and evidence otherwise. Would you have that evidence? Do you know of any other psychologists that say otherwise?

I know that Rabbi Twerski and Dr Lieberman say that. The distinction I'm making is as follows- perhaps without it you will have a hard time being selfless, but just because a person has self esteem doesn't mean they will be selfless. By their explanation, every rasha and evil person in the world were just lacking self esteem.

Do I have evidence to the contrary? Well, based on the Torahs I've learned from R Moshe Shapiro and R Shimon Shkop, I believe there is ample evidence that at least they believed that a person can have self esteem and still be a bad person.

Think about it in this simple way. Let's assume a person has a corrupt value system- let's say an anti-Torah, self centered ethic that their society subscribes to. Wouldn't they follow it if they subscribed to it EVEN if they had low self esteem? You'll become
more selfless and generous if that's part of your value system; if not, you most certainly won't.

Being in Kiruv I see this all the time. People with tremendously healthy psyches who have no idea of the concept of selflessness and generosity because that's not their world, and people who are from our world who have terrible self esteem but are so giving because that's their chinuch.

To me, this is an elementary observation of the world, and why self esteem isn't the answer to the world's ills- because without values and a framework, self esteem won't get you anywhere.

Wow! Deep stuff you are saying. However, this discussion can go on and on, I don't think this is the place so I'll stop here.
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Re: Tryin' 18 May 2017 14:50 #313521

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Sound arguments were set forth that those with a high self esteem can be selfish and even cause acting out.

Still... 
Are Rabbi Twerski and Dr. Lieberman really saying their point on self-esteem works with  "every" person and in "every" situation. These accomplished men should not be reduced to simplistic generalizations. -

"I know that Rabbi Twerski and Dr Lieberman say that. The distinction I'm making is as follows- perhaps without it you will have a hard time being selfless, but just because a person has self esteem doesn't mean they will be selfless. By their explanation, every rasha and evil person in the world were just lacking self esteem".


There are always exceptions to rules. However, exceptions are just that and don't create rules.

Meaning, that they say within any  given group; be it Jewish observant or gentile religious or secular people - those that have a good self esteem will tend to be more generous then those that have a low self esteem. by a large margin but my no means is this rule ALWAYS true.

Next -doesn't anxiety and depression play a large role in many cases of addiction? Although it can be said that anxiety and depression can certainly happen to people with a good self esteem, is it not obvious that these would be more much prevalent with those of low self-esteem.
Last Edit: 18 May 2017 14:52 by yiraishamaim.

Re: Tryin' 18 May 2017 14:51 #313522

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Great!

All this high-fallutin' lingo that I have no clue about was hurtin' my self esteem (of course, that was not endangerin' my sobriety, for I act out upon my high self esteem), and now we can get back to talking about stuff that really matters: women, men, sex, girls, porn and stuff.
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Re: Tryin' 18 May 2017 14:55 #313523

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yiraishamaim wrote on 18 May 2017 14:50:
Sound arguments were set forth that those with a high self esteem can be selfish and even cause acting out.

Still... 
Are Rabbi Twerski and Dr. Lieberman really saying their point on self-esteem works with  "every" person and in "every" situation. These accomplished men should not be reduced to simplistic generalizations. -

"I know that Rabbi Twerski and Dr Lieberman say that. The distinction I'm making is as follows- perhaps without it you will have a hard time being selfless, but just because a person has self esteem doesn't mean they will be selfless. By their explanation, every rasha and evil person in the world were just lacking self esteem".


There are always exceptions to rules. However, exceptions are just that and don't create rules.

Meaning, that they say within any  given group; be it Jewish observant or gentile religious or secular people - those that have a good self esteem will tend to be more generous then those that have a low self esteem. by a large margin but my no means is this rule ALWAYS true.

Next -doesn't anxiety and depression play a large role in many cases of addiction? Although it can be said that anxiety and depression can certainly happen to people with a good self esteem, is it not obvious that these would be more much prevalent with those of low self-esteem.

Great stuff!

II asked Dr Lieberman directly this about somethin' he said and he said that it is a generality and there can be exceptions. He gave me one. I provided another, and he agreed.
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads: Mikvah Night - Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Last Page

https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/210029-Tryin
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!
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Quote from the chevra: "Is Cordnoy truly a Treasure Island pirate from the Southern Seas?"

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Re: Tryin' 18 May 2017 15:53 #313536

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Mesayin wrote on 18 May 2017 14:14:

Workingguy wrote on 17 May 2017 23:30:

Mesayin wrote on 17 May 2017 18:19:

Workingguy wrote on 17 May 2017 14:51:

Mesayin wrote on 17 May 2017 13:57:

GrowStrong wrote on 17 May 2017 13:55:

Mesayin wrote on 17 May 2017 13:49:

Workingguy wrote on 17 May 2017 00:24:

Mesayin wrote on 16 May 2017 21:56:

Shlomo24 wrote on 16 May 2017 21:52:
Self-esteem is overrated.

And your evidence for that?

Esteem as a verb means the value that you have for yourself and the respect you feel or show to yourself. Self esteem means to self value and respect. I would think he would know how much he values and respects himself.

And Cordnoy is right as well- some people have issues because they feel highly about themselves  and sort of feel they are entitled to act out or basically, their arrogance is what gets them in trouble. 

You obviously haven't studied about self esteem. Every psychology book I have read and every lecture I have heard says that a high self esteem makes a lower ego and less arrogance and more humility.

I can only talk from my personal experience.
My self esteem is very high and my ego is larger.

Miscommunication here.

The self esteem you are referring might not be the same self esteem that is referred to psychology.

So to clarify- because I haven't even really understood who you've been commenting to and who the miscommunication has been with- there are indeed two different things that I was talking about.

One is self esteem from a psychological perspective, as you pointed out. Indeed, when people have a healthy sense of self/self esteem, it indeed CAN help them refrain from acting out, because it is beneath them. The Torah is very clear about that as well- someone who really believes he is a prince will not hang out in the gutter. 

And indeed, such a person can have more room to be humble, generous, etc. And Shlomo, I personally have found that when I've been able to feel better about myself, I don't act out because I think it doesn't make sense for who I am. 

But Mesayin, the point I was making is that Cordnoy would know whether he holds himself in esteem or not, and by that I meant by the literal definition of the word.

And I want to add one thing- as someone who's been in therapy for five years, and has 25 psychology books in my bathroom alone and is overly psychological (as many of my posts show), don't believe everything that psychology tells you. 

There are people who have very healthy self esteem and are still self centered, selfish, etc. Think about it this way- the Torah is very against arrogance. But we know that according to psychology, arrogant people have low self esteem and it's coming because they have a hole to fill. So how come we say that HaShem says He can't reside in the same world as such a person?

And some answer like you might- that it's because he has such a low image of himself that HaShem won't hang with him. 

But the real answer according to most is that sometimes, people have a high level of self esteem that would meet the psychological criteria and yet are selfish.

There are numerous sources that indicate this- that a person can misunderstand his role in the world Davis because he has healthy self esteem- and that he has to channel his self esteem to make him interested in others. 

I hear and I respect your knowledge about this.

However, Rabbi Dr. A.J. Twerski has written a ton of books about self esteem and seems to be convinced that a healthy self esteem creates selflessness and not selfishness (I dislike fish by the way). The aforementioned Dr. Dovid Lieberman also preaches that.

I am compelled to think that way too unless I get facts and evidence otherwise. Would you have that evidence? Do you know of any other psychologists that say otherwise?

I know that Rabbi Twerski and Dr Lieberman say that. The distinction I'm making is as follows- perhaps without it you will have a hard time being selfless, but just because a person has self esteem doesn't mean they will be selfless. By their explanation, every rasha and evil person in the world were just lacking self esteem.

Do I have evidence to the contrary? Well, based on the Torahs I've learned from R Moshe Shapiro and R Shimon Shkop, I believe there is ample evidence that at least they believed that a person can have self esteem and still be a bad person.

Think about it in this simple way. Let's assume a person has a corrupt value system- let's say an anti-Torah, self centered ethic that their society subscribes to. Wouldn't they follow it if they subscribed to it EVEN if they had low self esteem? You'll become
more selfless and generous if that's part of your value system; if not, you most certainly won't.

Being in Kiruv I see this all the time. People with tremendously healthy psyches who have no idea of the concept of selflessness and generosity because that's not their world, and people who are from our world who have terrible self esteem but are so giving because that's their chinuch.

To me, this is an elementary observation of the world, and why self esteem isn't the answer to the world's ills- because without values and a framework, self esteem won't get you anywhere.

Wow! Deep stuff you are saying. However, this discussion can go on and on, I don't think this is the place so I'll stop here.

Mesayin,
You beat me to it! I was going to say the same thing- although I would enjoy going on and on- but people sometimes take that as strife or tension which turns some people off. So I agree with you, and also respect what you're saying. 

Re: Tryin' 18 May 2017 15:58 #313537

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yiraishamaim wrote on 18 May 2017 14:50:
Sound arguments were set forth that those with a high self esteem can be selfish and even cause acting out.

Still... 
Are Rabbi Twerski and Dr. Lieberman really saying their point on self-esteem works with  "every" person and in "every" situation. These accomplished men should not be reduced to simplistic generalizations. -

"I know that Rabbi Twerski and Dr Lieberman say that. The distinction I'm making is as follows- perhaps without it you will have a hard time being selfless, but just because a person has self esteem doesn't mean they will be selfless. By their explanation, every rasha and evil person in the world were just lacking self esteem".


There are always exceptions to rules. However, exceptions are just that and don't create rules.

Meaning, that they say within any  given group; be it Jewish observant or gentile religious or secular people - those that have a good self esteem will tend to be more generous then those that have a low self esteem. by a large margin but my no means is this rule ALWAYS true.

Next -doesn't anxiety and depression play a large role in many cases of addiction? Although it can be said that anxiety and depression can certainly happen to people with a good self esteem, is it not obvious that these would be more much prevalent with those of low self-esteem.

According to much of the prevalent opinion today (not one that I necessarily subscribe to) anxiety and depression have a strong genetic component and more likely will cause low self esteem than be the result of low self esteem. 

I struggled with anxiety for a good chunk of this year-baruch HaShem it's not an issue as of now- and the guy who I saw who was tremendously helpful in like three short sessions told me that there is a strong genetic component, and most people who struggle with anxiety have an immediate family member who does as well.

But even in my own experience there is definitely some truth to what you're saying. 

Re: Tryin' 18 May 2017 16:15 #313538

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cordnoy wrote on 18 May 2017 14:51:
Great!

All this high-fallutin' lingo that I have no clue about was hurtin' my self esteem (of course, that was not endangerin' my sobriety, for I act out upon my high self esteem), and now we can get back to talking about stuff that really matters: women, men, sex, girls, porn and stuff.

Totally agree. (Although I have no clue what high-fallutin' lingo means).

Cordy, any idea how to change the subject?
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Re: Tryin' 18 May 2017 16:22 #313540

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cordnoy wrote on 18 May 2017 14:51:
Great!

All this high-fallutin' lingo that I have no clue about was hurtin' my self esteem (of course, that was not endangerin' my sobriety, for I act out upon my high self esteem), and now we can get back to talking about stuff that really matters: women, men, sex, girls, porn and stuff.

Yes! My kind of conversation.
If you're an LGBTQ or LGBTQ-questioning person and looking for someone who can understand you, feel free to reach out. I promise no judgement and to try and listen the best I can. 

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Re: Tryin' 18 May 2017 20:36 #313590

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Shlomo24 wrote on 17 May 2017 12:26:
I have a high self-esteem. (I took a clinical test that is used by many psychologists and psychiatrists. Called the "Beck self-esteem scale.") It may give me some more serenity, but that's it. I don't act or because of self-esteem and I don't get sober through self-esteem. I think many of us are trained to focus so much on self-esteem because we know that the core of many pathologies is self-esteem. But in my experience, focusing on my self-esteem or lack thereof was not very helpful to me.

Rosenberg self-esteem scale. Beck is for depresssion, called the Beck depression inventory.
If you're an LGBTQ or LGBTQ-questioning person and looking for someone who can understand you, feel free to reach out. I promise no judgement and to try and listen the best I can. 

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Re: Tryin' 18 May 2017 20:41 #313591

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Shlomo24 wrote on 18 May 2017 20:36:

Shlomo24 wrote on 17 May 2017 12:26:
I have a high self-esteem. (I took a clinical test that is used by many psychologists and psychiatrists. Called the "Beck self-esteem scale.") It may give me some more serenity, but that's it. I don't act or because of self-esteem and I don't get sober through self-esteem. I think many of us are trained to focus so much on self-esteem because we know that the core of many pathologies is self-esteem. But in my experience, focusing on my self-esteem or lack thereof was not very helpful to me.

Rosenberg self-esteem scale. Beck is for depresssion, called the Beck depression inventory.

Do they have a lust scale? Maybe they do, I should check Dr. Seuss' books
My thread/My story

Slogans and Sayings

Relapses and falling are inevitable, the challenge is getting up.

Tzaddikim are the not the ones that don't fall, they are the ones that fall constantly and get up constantly.

Feel free to contact me anytime through private message or chat.

Chizzuk emails by Rabbi Duvid Ashear shlita that can change your day subscribe now.

Check out my powerful tefila.

Depressed? Check out some of my jokes
Last Edit: 18 May 2017 20:41 by mesayin. Reason: Misspell

Re: Tryin' 18 May 2017 20:48 #313593

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Mesayin wrote on 18 May 2017 20:41:

Shlomo24 wrote on 18 May 2017 20:36:

Shlomo24 wrote on 17 May 2017 12:26:
I have a high self-esteem. (I took a clinical test that is used by many psychologists and psychiatrists. Called the "Beck self-esteem scale.") It may give me some more serenity, but that's it. I don't act or because of self-esteem and I don't get sober through self-esteem. I think many of us are trained to focus so much on self-esteem because we know that the core of many pathologies is self-esteem. But in my experience, focusing on my self-esteem or lack thereof was not very helpful to me.

Rosenberg self-esteem scale. Beck is for depresssion, called the Beck depression inventory.

Do they have a lust scale? Maybe they do, I should check Dr. Seuss' books

Quite a few online tests for "are you a lustaholic/sexaholic"
I just got 27/30 for my self esteem... if anyone needs any i have lots spare! They can take my ego, fears and sexaholism as well if they want

Re: Tryin' 18 May 2017 22:23 #313620

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There's the 20 questions in the White Book...
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Re: Tryin' 19 May 2017 12:23 #313664

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Shlomo24 wrote on 18 May 2017 22:23:
There's the 20 questions in the White Book...

II used to score 85/90 on that test.

I must have gotten stupider in my old days; I've been scorin' about 75 lately.
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Re: Tryin' 19 May 2017 14:26 #313668

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cordnoy wrote on 19 May 2017 12:23:

Shlomo24 wrote on 18 May 2017 22:23:
There's the 20 questions in the White Book...

II used to score 85/90 on that test.

I must have gotten stupider in my old days; I've been scorin' about 75 lately.

Not that old if you are still scoring 
i'm all about that (substantial) bass, no trouble ....

if you're looking for trouble, you can email me @trouble69gye@outlook.com

Re: Tryin' 23 May 2017 04:12 #313897

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Sherlock: "I needed to inject an element of darin' into my sobriety… remove the safety net…The daily business of stayin' sober - of goin' to meetin's with people not nearly my intellectual equal has become a bore. My mind rebels at stagnation. The process of recovery has become stagnant. So I have increased the level of difficulty in order to remain engaged. What I have not done, I assure you - is waver in my commitment - not one iota."

Watson: "You're arrogant."

Holmes: "I beg your pardon."

Watson: "Your problem is that you think that you're smarter than everyone else."

Holmes: "I am smarter than everyone else - demonstrably."

Joan: "I didn't say you weren't; you are. I said you think you are. You think that bein' smarter makes you different. Don't you think that other people get bored at meetin's too......Everyone gets bored at meetin's! It doesn't make you different; it makes you typical. But you know what the one's who stay sober do? They keep goin'!"

Sherlock (bein' stubborn): "Have you considered the possibility that I experience my boredom more acutely than others experience theirs? I've been relatin' to my sobriety like a tourist who visits the Grand Canyon, but doesn't go near the edge for fear of fallin' in."

Watson: "Yes, and that's how you stay sober."

Holmes: "It is also how you lull yourself into a torpor. If addiction is an abyss, shouldn't the addict tiptoe up to the edge once and a while? Stare down into the gorge."

Holmes (at a meetin'): "Hello, my name is Sherlock and I'm an addict."

Others: "Hello, Sherlock."

Holmes: "I'm also... I'm the cleverest person in the room. Now, I'm... I'm so much cleverer than my peers that I've come to believe I feel boredom more acutely than everybody else... which leads me to my recent quandary... arrogance. My own arrogance, you know, to be precise. And the possibility that that might be an Achilles' heel to my recovery."
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
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Last Edit: 23 May 2017 04:13 by cordnoy.
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