Rage AT Machine wrote on 25 Sep 2009 19:17:


Thank you, RATM.  It seems that the prohibition is derived from "Lo Tin'af," but the punishment is derived from Er and Onan.

Rage AT Machine wrote on 25 Sep 2009 19:22:


I agree that the Aveira is not the main motivator to quit.  At least after Matan Torah, non-Jews have no prohibition of Zera l'vatalah or promiscuity (where adultery or incest is not involved), yet there are websites devoted to helping them with sexual addictions.

Regarding covering hair, the Gemarah is explicit that it's d'Oraysah.

kedusha, thank you for showing me the source on lo tinaf being the source...


Kedusha wrote on 25 Sep 2009 19:28:



ahem, sorry to be a nag, but, source , please

Regarding non-jews quitting masturbation, i think that is limited to religious christians and muslims...most non-jews have no problem with excessive or habitual masturbation or pr0n...i think the  non-religious sa sites are devoted to illegal sexual encounters (in other words, the non-jews have even come to accept excessive legal sexual encounters as legitimate)...i dont disagree in principle with the non-jews...in other words, you may be able to be a good human but not a good jew...i want to be a good jew...

Rage AT Machine wrote on 25 Sep 2009 19:30:


Kesubos - Daf 72a.   

#10 in the Attitude handbook might be helpful to you... "Fear of Heaven can’t stop us, but it can PUSH us"

But regardless of the issur involved, such as in the case of women, it is important to realize that an addiction of any type is destructive. After all, alcohol consumption is not assur at all, yet an addiction to alcohol will render you pretty much useless to the world and to Hashem. Hence, AA and SA...

Thanks.

Kedusha, you should change your name to money because you are money:

Mishna on Daf 72 a says :
ואלו יוצאות שלא בכתובה העוברת על דת משה ויהודית ... ואיזוהי דת יהודית יוצאה וראשה פרוע

The the gemara asks:

ואיזוהי דת יהודית יוצאה וראשה פרוע:  ראשה פרוע דאורייתא היא דכתיב (במדבר ה) ופרע את ראש האשה ותנא דבי רבי ישמעאל אזהרה לבנות ישראל שלא יצאו בפרוע ראש דאורייתא

btw, So i was right about the sota thing, also...i knew it was deorayta its just the scriptual connection is weak...you kedusha are a geniuis...you nailed it on the fly, too...im either gonna call you money or more appropriately mori verabi...

Rage AT Machine wrote on 27 Sep 2009 03:45:


I do agree that, without Torah Sheb'al Peh, we would not likely have figured out on our own that a married woman must cover her hair Min HaTorah.

i think its a little more than that, though...i mean, lets take teffilin...its says in the torah, וּקְשַׁרְתָּם לְאוֹת, עַל-יָדֶךָ; וְהָיו לְטֹטָפֹת, בֵּין עֵינֶיךָ


This has no independent meaning...we are totally without any clue whatsoever what this can possibly mean...comes Torah Sheb'al Peh and explains...then you go look up the list of the 613 mitzvoth in sefer chinuch or rambam and guess what, each teffila has its own clearly deliniated mitzvah...

then you have "acting out" (i hate that word almost as much as i hate masturbation) and covering hair...we have very good explanation for lo tinaf...rashi tells us exactly what that means...comes along a drash and piles on "acting out"...same with covering hair...then you go look up the 613 and guess whats NOT there?

look, this discussion is almost completely acedemic because at the end of the day, chazal are clear on both...im just sayin, with the weak scriptual connection, it is easier to be moreh heter and allow an addiction to continue...

Not every d'Oraysah can be found in the Taryag Mitzvos (I don't believe the Rambam includes the twice daily Mitzvah of Zechiras Yetzias Mitzrayim).

I just got around to reading this thread and I have to say that RATM really hit the nail on the head. We know there's a rule that סכנתא חמורא מאיסורא - even physical danger is a more severe concern than issur. "Kal vachomer" spiritual danger, which threatens to destroy our neshomoh.

This understanding is so crucial to our recovery. We are living in a sea of smut that is threatening to drown us. If we don't recognize the danger for what it is, we are hopeless. We absolutely must realize that it's death that we're running away from.

battleworn wrote on 01 Oct 2009 13:07:


RIGHT ON, battleworn!

The Mishna says it will be a dor that is all clean, and a dor that is all guilty. There is no longer any middle ground, like the olden days (read: 2 decades ago).

In the olden days (maybe) you could 'taste' lust and still live mostly normal.

Today, your a goner.

This realization saved my life.

It was THE catalyst that changed everything.

kutan