Sometimes I feel that when I am looking at the shmutz, its not neccessarily controlling me. I'am just looking because its so pretty and beautiful to me.  I don't think I continue looking as an escape of other personal issues I have.  Perhaps I just look because its so pleasing to me.  Why do I have to say that I am trusting in the porn more so than G-d?

If I have a food addiction and I eat some juicy ribs before I go to bed, even though I am not hungry - am I giving my trust over to the food or I am just eating it because it is so tasty?

In reality you know this stuff isn't 'pretty'. Its all fake and artificial. The true beauty is God and what He does for us. The lust will deceive you and make you think that it will be your true happiness. Well, we all know what happens when we lust. That's step 1. Now, if lust is what I was putting alot of my trust in, and that hasn't really panned out, step 2 comes into play. Only a power greater than myself can bring me back to sanity.

Stuart, your question implies that you can "lust like a gentleman".  It does not control you, rather you choose to indulge because it pleases you and not because of any deeper issues.  Maybe like art?  But from your story, and the number of things you wish were different so you wouldn't use porn, etc, it appears that you cannot "take it or leave it" and it's not just a pretty face.  It sounds like you're powerless over it and want things to be different.  If so, the need must be deeper than your question implies or you wouldn't be here.

aaron4 wrote on 19 Jul 2010 14:32:

Agreed, and I think I kinda was thinking the same as I was typing the question (this writing thing actually does work!). I guess what's bothering me is I can't figure out WHY I have this problem? I don't have any history of child abuse or neglect, so I figured I just look because I am a normal guy.
I know this may not be the job for this step, but just wondering

stu,

i had the same problem that you have. i was like, ok, my childhood wasnt the best and maybe i would want more for my own kids but there is nothing there that was particularly traumatic or that is an obvious sign of trouble to come. i cant figure out why i have this problem either. and on top of that, i truly believe that any person, no matter what their particular history or background can become a porn addict. i mean, i think we've come to a point in history where in fact there are porn addicts of all kinds being bred on a regular basis and they have little in common in their history to suggest that such a thing would develop.

and this theme i kept hearing from the main forum: that we use lust to fill this empty void we created in ourselves; a theme espoused by dovid chaim and by rabbi schlachter; made absolutely no sense to me. this story that we were the victim of this horror in our youth that has created this in us sounds like a whimpy sorry excuse you make for yourself.

thats why i loved it on one of the first calls someone asked dov what was it in history that caused him to be an addict he basically said, i dont know nor do i care. yesterday he joked about how maybe it was the fact that as babies we turned to tit for nourishment that we came to believe then that tit is god.

the way i understood him is; who cares why. this isnt therapy, it is recovery. you want to learn why, pay some shrink $500 for 40 minutes to give you an educated guess. here, we dont know or care if there is a void or something in our history that has done this. what matters is how we behave. and i dont know about you, but i behave irrationally and out of control when it comes to porn. i worship it and am fanatical and compulsive about getting it. and i dont know whether this was caused by this that or the other thing and i dont ONLY use it when im stressed out; sometimes i use it out of boredom or just cuz i like it; but bottom line is: i need to find a way out.  how could hell be any worse?

so i started doing the 12 steps with dov. its nice and simple. doesnt get too Freudian. step one, list all the stupid sh-- youve done. step two, identify the things you are fanatical about and worship. im not going to think myself out of recovery.

Thanks TNB.  I can relate to everything you said (except that I had a bottle when I was a baby)!  Does this mean its a self control issue - i.e knowing when you see or feel  lust to stop it completely? I always thought it was, but I don't think this forum or even the 12 steps neccesarily address that.

Forget the last question.  I think I should just shut up and listen and do the steps.  It's worked for many in the past and nothing else worked for me yet, so this must be the way to do it.

Stuart wrote on 19 Jul 2010 13:39:

Stuart, I can really relate to this feeling.  Although I would probably add curiousity to the list of why I look.  But the answer is what everyone has written in response, i.e., if it was only these innocent reasons, why can't we stop when we want to.  Why does it take over our minds.  I think all would agree that there are aspects of nature that are beautiful, the swiss alps, beautiful flowers, a sunset.  If I had to guess I think it would be safe to assume that you (like me) don't spend your days obsessing over when you're going to see you're next sunset.  Or tell you're wife that you'll be coming home late from work because you had work to take care of and then slip over to the botanical gardens to catch their latest exhibit.  It may sound extreme but that's what we do with sex and porn.  Obviously, there is something more than just prettiness and beauty.

Stuart wrote on 19 Jul 2010 19:13:
I too had a bottle.  But of course therein lies the answer.  If only we had been breastfeed, we wouldn't have to chase after breasts now.
One of the beautiful things about the forum in general is that people from every life circumstance are represented here.  There are those who have good marriages, others with bad marriages, some with money, others with no money, and yes some breastfed as a child and others bootlefed.  What it tells me is that the "if onlys" do not work.  The bottom line is we know we have a problem and none of the "if only I had _____" will work to correct that problem.  The only one that can help us is G-d Himself since He is above all of these circumstances.

Stuart wrote on 19 Jul 2010 13:39:


Ask yourself this question: Have you ever looked at porn and said "Ok I am only going to look for 30 minutes and thats it!"?

If you have I'd like to know what the end result was. Did you actualy look for only 30 minutes? I have said this and ended up looking for hours on end. It just doesnt work. I am powerless over lust once I give it the oxygen to breathe.

I think that there is some truth to the fact that we lust as an escape. But we all have pressures. Some have more then others. And minimizes pressures - while helpful, still isn't going to eliminate the normal life pressure. So ultimately, it doesn't matter all that much. But it does, a little.

kanesher wrote on 20 Jul 2010 21:00:


O man..just wait till steps 4 & 5, Kanesher. You'll find that it has alot to do with acting out and is defitnitly used as an escape.

Agreed again with all of the above, but why can't I say I use the internet as an escape? Its true after 30 minutes on yeshiva world I would get bored and turn to something else (porn), but after 30 min of porn I don't get bored because its a lot more exciting than the former.

It is used as an escape. We dont know how to deal with our feelings of anxiety, depression, fears, etc. In Dov's words: For some reason when we get into trouble we grab onto our Makom Hamilah instead of grabbing onto Hashem. Our brains are to do so because of years and years of practicing this. Once we learn that when we get into a tight situation not to go to the pornography and to go to Hashem, then we can live a better and more complete life. But we dont know how to do this yet. Were on step 2.

Another thing I realize I give power to is my computer and blackberry.  Is that possible? I seem to rely and depend on these things so much.  If I don't have it or its broken its very diffucult (mind you on Shabbos I seem to cope fine).  Although its used for many positive and productive functions these items are sometimes "worshiped" with hopes as a saviour.

Step 2 - Part 2
I think were suppose to answer What is it that I need and want in a higher power?
this one is a tough one.  I don't think I really think about this too much.  Perhaps this relates to the whole emuna issue.  I beleive we are suppose to function that each and every situation comes from Hashem.  Not just the major events in one's life such as Parnas, children, and tragedies chas ve shalom, but all events are mandated by G-d.

Not sure if I'm grasping this part of the step.