Have you studied the "Keep Truckingism" theory of GYEONICS by Professor Bardichev?

Eye, your part of the family. You got to check in and tell us how you're doing. You can't just leave us in the dark! We love you to much for that!

guardureyes wrote on 09 Sep 2009 11:55:


Sorry, what was that?

battleworn wrote on 09 Sep 2009 14:13:


Thanks.

In light of Battleworn's comment:

I still feel a major struggle in keeping my eyes down on the street.  (Maybe the next GUE PDF release will be an "eyes-off approach.")

I got myself a pocket calendar.  Though I haven't used one in years, I'm hoping maybe I can be a bit more organized with it.

Then, a curious idea entered my head--to mark on the calendar how many times each day I look at things on the street that I shouldn't.

I haven't started yet (as the first date on the calendar doesn't start for another week; I'm going to stick an extra page in it to keep me covered until then).  But, I started thinking about it.  It's a level of accountability that I never thought I could hold myself to.

I'm not usually in favor of intricate behavior charts, but I think this one is fairly simple.  I think it might be helpful.

Besides that, I'm trying to work on the attitude--trying to take my mind off of lust.  Trying to think of worthwhile things instead.

I'm also starting to wonder if an accountability partner, or phone sponsor, might be even more helpful  than just posting here.

Wonderful!
its a blitzkreig, hitting the YH with multiple approaches.

Besides that, I'm trying to work on the attitude--trying to take my mind off of lust.  Trying to think of worthwhile things instead.

one of the obstacles is that  lusting seems like fun and enjoyment.
so trying to think of other worthwhile things does not do it... because part of you still is longing for the lusting.

What worked for me is to realize how despicable > it is to be 'lusting'  :o  and, as guard call it, poison.

Rather than go on with why it seems that way to me... think about it... and tell us YOUR feelings, on why you would REALLY rather NOT be lusting.

best Elul wishes,
kutan

kutan shel hachabura wrote on 09 Sep 2009 21:08:


In the mean time, I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts about this.

tomorrow, bli neder.
Promised the misses I'd be home on time to do homework with the kids.
cityYIKES!

hope the traffic is light today, otherwise, ...


... oh dear.

Eye.nonymous wrote on 09 Sep 2009 21:17:


I realized that this is not so easy.  I've found it not so easy to trace the steps to how I got here.  Also, it was not just one point, but the waxing of many things I've seen on the site/handbooks/the-world-out-there (where we have to go, in between logging onto GYE) that came together.

That said, here goes.

Have you ever been to a kidush after shachris? Where I daven, Hashem should bless them, there is a takana that only cake and soda (and woodford). Nothing else. But, I'm talking about a kidush with oily, brown, potato kugel.
Well, it seems people like it. In fact, I never understood why the caterer serves lukshen kugel too, since everyone goes for the potato. In my older age, I realized that it is for the baal simcha... so that they don't complain about the amount of food...

'Hey, how come you served so little, for all the money you took"  ???
"huh? Little? Come on... look at all the lukshen kugle left over"  ;D

:

Anyway, did you ever see someone who just HAD to get a piece? (or two or three or four). You probably seen it... the guy lunging for a peice, with that look on his face...  :o

Well, I've seen it more than once.
Since we are all anonymous, I'll say that I think I might have even been that fellow, once upon a time.

That is called ' lusting ' .

The kugel is mutar.
The guy heard kidush. On wine. Full cup. using a real kos, not paper. B'makom seuda (had 3 pcs of cake).

But its disgusting.

its piggish.

oink oink.

I've been zoche to see real live curly-tails run after food, so I can be may'id.

Its piggish.

That's REASON #1.

Coming tomorrow... iyh

REASON #2

(preview...

it doesn't stop

)


humble and happy,
kutan

I've been trying to think about your point, Kutan.

I remember once when I was a young teen-ager, a prostitute tried to hit on me.  I was surprised, because I wasn't anywhere known as a bad neighborhood, and I had even walked that way maybe thousands of times in my life.

It wasn't much of a challenge, as she struck me as being really disgusting, wearing trashy clothes and with make-up like paint.  And she was obviously after money, "hey, did you get paid from work today?"

She was really pathetic.

I was thinking of it now as if the prostitute was calling out, "hey, do you want to catch a vanarial disease?"

I started not to think of lust, but all the other people who I think their lives are sad.  Guys who waited ten years to get married, and then a year later got divorced.  Guys who are divorced and will never see their children.  People whose children were killed by busses, or whose children died young of illness.

Now, relations with a unmarried woman is one thing punishable by KOREIS.  Which, practically speaking, means a person will die without any children.  Either he won't have any, or the ones he has will die in his lifetime (though, I'm sure Teshuva helps for everything).

I tried to take my imagination a step further.  True, I might not think that looking will lead to anything, but still it COULD.  And, after all, this IS what the yeizer hopes for.  I imagiend--let the yeitzer have his way.  But, with this perspective:

I imagined that the women are calling out, "hey, have a minute of pleasure with me--and ruin your family forever!"  Either divorce, or loss of children.  Which, practically speaking or kabbalistically speaking, would be a natural outcome.

It doesn't seem enticing.

So, I still need to work on this more, but I can see how an interest in ANY woman can seem just as pathetic as that diseased prostitute.

I've been trying to write down in my pocket calendar how many times I've looked at women in the street each day.

I"m going easy on myself for now.  If I just forgot to keep my head down and saw someone, but then I looked away, I'm not counting this yet.  I'm counting if I see someone and keep on looking, or if I intentionally look around.

I assumed this happens nearly a hundred times in a day.

Now that I'm keeping track, I see it is much less.  Yesterday I made about 4 check marks.  Though I was more careful because I was writing down my progress, the times I was even challenged was incredibly less.

So, I see two benefits of charting your progress.

With this 90 day chart, I had assumed that my falls with mas*** was once every few months.  After I started keeping track, I realized it was much more often--I NEEDED TO WORK ON THIS, AND I HAD IGNORED IT, THINKING I WAS DOING SO WELL.

With this chart to keep track of how many times I was looking at women, I THOUGHT IT HAPPENED SO MANY TIMES THAT I THOUGHT THE BATTLE WAS COMPLETELY HOPELESS.  Now, I see it is much more manageable.

I guess, since you sort of have to think all the time "don't look," and "keep your eyes down," it's easy to feel that you're fighting off a real challenge every second.

Dear friend Eye.non
shkoyuch for the update. Your above two posts were really heartwarming.
You are on track and doing GREAT!

Regarding the reframing of ones mind so as not to WANT to lust, it needs to come from within. what I write is pretty much meaningless... except to me. It would be meaningless to me too if I read it 2 months ago, say a post coming from the future Kutan. Why? because changing the ratzon must come from within, not from without.
So, it helps to see what others write, but only to give a general idea of what is the right path. Then, the person needs to bushwack on their own.

That said, you are clearly doing that, and developing your own mehalech, based on YOUR life's experiences.
KEEP IT UP!
changing the ratzon is a continuous process... needs constant nurturing.

kutan

Eye.

You are an amazing guy. I really like the idea of keeping track in a notebook of the times we take a second look. I think I'll add that to our tips section!

KUTGW

A thought came to me...

There's a gemara (somewhere in the 8th perek of chulin) that mentions that MAZIKIN have no control over something that is weighted, measured, or counted.

In context, it's about a MAZIK that was ordered to pay for damages, and given 30 days.  He was late, so he was summoned to appear in beit din.  He explained that he was late because he didn't find enough hefker items yet to repay his loan--MAZIKIN have no control over something that is weighted, measured, or counted.

I have previously applied this concept to learning--when you know there are 3 different opinions in Tosefos, you remember it a lot longer than "Rebbeinu Tam said..., Some say...., and Rabbeinu Shmuel says..."

But now I see it has an application here.  When you quantify your progress, and even your lack of progress, you can take the exact measures necessary to be successful.  But, when you're fighting this vague struggle, it's a lot harder to get anywhere (or even to realize you need to get anywhere).

In a related idea--I heard that if a person has low opinion of himself, let's say he thinks he's a lousy public speaker, no matter how much effort he makes, he will never overcome the problem.  Why?  Because the REAL problem is low self-esteem.  He does not have a public speaking problem.  Therefore, all the effort in the world won't help him to overcome it!

This is what I was feeling.  I need to overcome this horrible problem of looking at hundreds of women on the street every day!  I felt like I was never making any progress.  It seems the answer is, because I didn't really have a problem of looking at hundreds of women every day!  I was making an inappropriate effort.

Well, shouldn't an effort good for 100s of women be good enough to overcome a half-dozen?

NO!  If the problem were 100s of women, I would make a huge effort, and immediately realize that I'm seeing 10 or 20 or 30 women less each day--though I still see many, I would see a noticable improvement and get chizuk from it!

But, If I think I'm seeing 100s of women, but I'm only seeing a half dozen, then a difference of 1 or 2 isn't significant enough to feel much chizuk.

I've read and heard so many times "well, just control your eyes for a couple of days and then it gets so much easier!"  I've been fighting for years, and it has never felt any easier.

But, since I started struggling with what my problem REALLY is, I actually have felt the struggle get a bit easier.

Thank G-d.  

But, since I started struggling with what my problem REALLY is, I actually have felt the struggle get a bit easier.

Thank G-d. 

What is the REAL issue?

k