battleworn wrote on 07 Jan 2010 14:43:


Hi Reb Battleworn,

I've decided not to weigh in at this point only because I'm trying to focus on one point at a time. Once I finish discussing the disease theory (and I'd like to start getting into how RR and Torah look at it) I would like to get more involved in this very discussion. I'm enjoying it quite a bit, and I've got some thoughts on the topic which I would like to share. You're welcome to continue the discussion right here! 

2B

Reb Battle, I understand your reservations about this guy... I had them too. But I suggest you speak to him personally, once and for all, to understand what he is really saying. You are missinterpretting things he has said, and misunderstanding his Mehalech. It is not simple to explain in writing at all, so I truly suggest you have a good long talk with him. I believe when you are finished you will have a different opinion of him.

And BTW, when I was confused about him myself, I actually approached his Rebbe, who is a renowned and respected Posek in Yerushalayim (I can't say his name), and he reassured me that this therapist can be trusted and that he is a Yarei Shamayim. And after talking to him quite a few times, I can see that this is true. His bottom line goal for his patients is recovery and Kirvas Elokim, but sometimes it takes real "sly" wisdom to get there (kind of like Yakov and his akmimus - to get the brachos out of esav and to get the better of Lavan). When dealing with Esav and Lavan, we need to be Yaakov sometimes. Vayaakveini zeh pa'amayim... It's not as simple as it sounds, at all...

-- deleted --

Tomim, with all due respect, - and of course nothing personal at all, I don't see a point of posting this of the GYE forum. I want you to step back for a sec and without any "personal negiya" and try to ask yourself, "How will this help anyone?"

If someone who reads this is currently seeing success through the 12-Step model, why make him start to doubt? Do you want to take Achrayus on the possibility that he may get confused and fall as a result of your posts?

And if he "might" one day see success through the 12-Step program - but he gets discouraged to even try it because of your posts, and as a result never gets better, do you again want to take Achrayus on that possibility?

And if he knows nothing about the 12-Step approach and never plans on finding out anyway, what will these posts help him?

The only thing of benefit that I can see is when we share an approach that works for us. I can see absolutely no point in putting down other approaches that have worked for millions of people. Who exactly gains from that?

Again, I ask you to step back from all "self" and try to answer this objectively, with the best interests of everyone truly in mind.

Thank you.

Someone posted a letter on the forum once from the Lubavitcher Rebbe. It's a beautiful description of  "Emunah", and I want to share it here. I'm not sure why, but I'm sure it fits in somehow  .

The core of Jewish vitality and indestructibility is in its pure faith in G-d; not in some kind of an abstract Deity, hidden somewhere in the heavenly spheres, who regards this world from a distance; but absolute faith in a very personal G-d, who is the very life and existence of everybody; who permeates where one is, and what one does. Where there is such faith, there is no room for fear or anxiety, as the Psalmist says, 'I fear no evil, for Thou art with me,' with me, indeed, at all times, not only on Shabbos or Yom Tom, or during prayer or meditation on G-d. And when one puts his trust in G-d, unconditionally and unreservedly, one realizes what it means to be really free and full of vigor, for all one's energy is released in the most constructive way, not only in one's own behalf, but also in behalf of the environment at large.

The road is not free from obstacles and obstructions, for in the Divine order of things we are expected to attain our goal by effort; but if we make a determined effort, success is Divinely assured, and the obstacles and obstructions which at first loom large, dissolve and disappear.

I wish you to tread this road of pure faith in G-d, without over introspection and self-searching, as in the simple illustration of a man walking: he will walk most steadily and assuredly if he will not be conscious of his walk and not seek to consciously coordinate the hundreds of muscles operative in locomotion. If he did so, he would be unable to make his first step.

Hi Tomim!
I read what Guard posted, and some of your posts. I guess you are trying to help in some way. Guard has a point, though, and I'm curious for your answer to him.
About ten years ago, I bought a book called "How AA Failed Me", or something like that. I still have it somewhere. Anyway, as I read the many problems that the author had with AA, I couldn't help but get the feeling that he (or she?) had seen AA very differently from how I had seen it. Each chapter was another criticism of AA and was basically a mixture of AA-bashing and very nice facts and statistics. It was obviously a fun read. At that time, being in recovery for only about two or three years, I felt that if I only had a chance to talk with the author, I'd convince him (or her) of the error of his (or her) ways.
Boy, was I wrong - and full of myself.
Of course, I still am (both) sometimes, but over time and with Hashem's help, I've come to take myself and what I think and what others think about what I think, a little less seriously. Whew! So maybe I won't feel that way about your exposition of RR and we can actually have some pleasant back and forth! W/o a little humility things get rotten real fast for me....

As best as I can understand it, your quotes about AA refgerring to itself as the only way out of alcoholism are taken out of context. This is how I have seen these ideas used in AA recovery, and you tell me if it's what you mean, please (then we can discuss whether AA is right, or not):
If I am an alcoholic and have tried many things and all I have tried has failed (as many AAs/SAs/NAs have by the time they come to 12 steps), I cannot expect toget better if I make a half-effort in following the program of recovery outlined in AA. The only attitude that has a chance of success is if Ihang onto it for dear life. As if I have no other way and will die without it.
In fact, I can testify that the 12 steps, as they are inconvenient for a sick person, will seem like they are unnecessary and quite stupid, many many times. Doing things differently than what comes naturally to us is not what we want. We'd (and I guess I may be speaking for most addicts) prefer to keep doing and thinking as we have always been doing and thinking, while honestly expecting different results. Hey. We are addicts, after all. That's what we do. It's how we got here.
When AA refers to AA as absolutely necessary, it is plain to me that they are just saying what they found for themselves, and they know it.

For me, the proof that they know it, is the basic AA tradition (I forget which it is - but actually spending two hours reading the 12 traditions in the back of AA's "12 Steps and 12 Traditions" may shed a great deal of light on AA traditions and thinking, which is what you are talking about.) that AA does not engage in promotion, only in attraction.

In this way AA differs from many brands of christianity (and perhaps RR, BTW), that feel they must go out and convince all "non-believers" of "the truth" and try to bring them into the fold to "save them". Through most of our history, most of yiddishkeit did not do this, and generally is still not prosyletizing. (did I spell that right? who really cares?)

The reason may be different, but it's a similar attitude. We say tothe world: "613 mitzvos works just fine for us (except, of course, if we are looking at porn, masturbating, doing phone porn and other wierd stuff and hiding it behind our double life...oops!  ). It may not work for you - your tachlis may be toremain a goy and serve Hashem that way - you need not do as we do, unless you are really interested, for your own good. Then we share and teach.

The AA that I know works that way. The message is optional to outsiders - folks whohave not made up their minds that they may need to try AA. But once you have admitted that you are powerless over alcohol, that your life is unmanageable by you - then what do you expect? AA to say, "OK. Try these nice, educational things out a little bit. You can go halfway and just be partially honest and see if you are still comfortable, OK? We'd hate to chase you away with inconvenience. If you like being helped to see the naked truth about yourself, and you enjoy being humble, and you relish living like G-d is really in charge of what happens in your life and the world, then stay with us! If you decide at any time to just be honest when it suits you - don't worry! It's great!"

AA (like any recovery fellowship) is made up of people who are sometimes stupid, sometimes selfish, sometimes ignorant, and often a bit confused, but they know what they need to do to get better, because they have found out that the only thing that actually works for them is holding onto honesty like your life depends on it. Do you expect anything different? They are not telling this to you, they are telling it to themselves. That's the difference for me. 

If what I wrote is not clear, if it sounds contentious, or if you think I'm just blind to some basic facts, nu. Please feel free to let me know. I tried my best to share with you how I have experienced it.
I am not an AA groupie.
It's not my religion, yiddishkeit is.

I believe fully in what is written right in the "Solution" of the SA white book: "We know our solution is not for everybody, but for us it works," and in what it says in the last chapter of AA: "This book is meant to be suggestive only. We know only a little."

Do you reconsider what you wrote?
If you don't, go easy on me! I may not like being reminded that "I lost the debate"!  ;D

Ha! Whatever - have a great Shabbos, Tomim!

guardureyes wrote on 07 Jan 2010 22:27:


Stepping back.... Okay.

Dear Reb Guard,

To clarify where I stand with these posts and why it is that I’m posting this way, I'd like to begin on a more personal note: not too long ago, in a conversation with a relative of mine, I was discussing the recovery of a sibling. I was in disbelief that a person who’s been a confirmed drug addict (who never thought he’d live to see his 16th birthday - constantly overdosing) had gone through such a powerful recovery. He’s certainly improved in many areas of his life, but nothing about him showed that he had any level of commitment to the concepts discussed in NA. “He’s a different person!” I said. “But how?”. “Where’s his new design for living?”.

At the time, being fully absorbed in an SA group, it was impossible for me to understand that there could be another way. Everything I had learned said the opposite, but here, right  before of my eyes, I saw a completely changed person. There was no explanation for this!

I am well aware that when moving from one program to another, a person can possibly handicap himself by holding onto certain concepts. In this case, with AA’s bold statements, to even fathom recovery by other means seems out of the question. I feel it important to address these concepts for the benefit of anyone else who feels they need different approach.

Because any program of recovery is founded on the disease theory, I understand this concept to be  a fundamental topic when discussing a new plan of action. I know that the point of our sharing is not to get into debates or share what does not work, but as long as I cannot fully confront these issues, there’s no way to possibly introduce my idea of what does work - in a satisfactory manner.

I went well out of my way to be non-aggressive in my approach, editing out many things that I thought would outrightly offend AA without purpose. “AA bashing” is not the name of the game. This is about sharing "what works for me" (being a Torah-RR approach as well as some other things)!

Unfortunately, because AA doesn’t have any tolerance for others, just explaining the possibility for another opinion seems to be offensive to them. I shouldn’t need to be walking on eggshells just in order to have an opinion. If everything in the AA texts are 100% true, than as I displayed, there really is no room for others. If you’re genuinely interested in hearing what I have to say about my approach, than AA’s approaches are going to have to be put on the table.

Really this isn’t about my approach vs. your approach. The purpose of this thread isn’t to promote RR either. As a thread in Battleworn’s corner, the purpose here is to discuss RR, to identify what parts of their approach are compatible with Torah, and what parts we can take.

In the same regard, I acknowledge that some of AA’s ideas should be considered basic principles for anyone interested in recovery, and that everyone can benefit from the ideas taught in these groups, regardless if they accept all of them. I’m grateful for the guidance that I received in my participation, and gaining knowledge on a whole new set of tools was a great learning experience for me!

Concerning your question if I’m willing to take the achrayos of people possibly getting discouraged from SA and not getting better, that itself is a lengthy discussion of it’s own - one I'd be glad to continue privately.

2B

dov wrote on 08 Jan 2010 00:50:


Dear Dov,

In light of my above post, I’m sure you can understand my preference in taking this discussion to private messages. You address some great points and I’m eager to comment. Just out of concern for where this discussion may lead, I think it’s best we do this privately. That way, in case things go south, we can shake hands and drop the discussion without leaving our readers hanging.

If we see benefit in sharing the text of our conversation with the public board, we’ll consider it then. Trust me that I have no intention of (publicly) debating this if it can prove to be futile and even potentially damaging.

On the other hand, if you are of the opinion that anything that was said public should be challenged and "discussed" specifically in public (in the event that there are disagreements); then I guess I'm game!

What did you have in mind? Your call!

2B

Rage ATM wrote on 08 Jan 2010 04:38:


Dear Rage, Yo Raja!

I understand that you’re eager to hear what my approach is as apposed to what it isn’t. But being that the point of this thread is to thoroughly discuss, you'll have to give it time till the concept comes out in full expansion. When it’s finished, I hope that it will be more comprehensive and useful than if I would have just explained it on one foot.

Thanks for recommending that book! I'll for sure look into getting a copy!

2B

"AA not having tolerance for others" is very misleading. As Dov explained above, it has nothing to do with "tolerance" at all, since all they do in AA is share what works for them. And for them, this program - and the attitudes they espouse - saved their life, and continues to keep them alive. So when they share, they obviously feel with every fiber of their being, that they must hold onto these attitudes or they're dead. But they only promote through attraction, not promotion. So the entire concept of "tolerance" here is a non-issue.

I understand that in order to share your approach, you feel you need to first lay down the "problems" with AA philosophy, however, it is too dangerous to do this in stages, like you are doing, since it is confusing and leaves the reader with no alternative. Instead, I would like to ask you to type this all, as you are doing here, in a Word document, and call it "the introduction to the RR approach". Then, once you start actually posting the RR approach here - which I am eager to hear (since maybe it will help someone), you can post a link in your posts to your Word doc (which you can upload somewhere) and ask people to read the intro in order to better understand the concepts you are discussing now.

I hope you understand why I don't feel this forum is the "forum" for the "intro". You see, the "intro" on its own is too dangerous - and I don't think anyone wants to take achrayus on what can happen for someone who only happens to read your intro and not the rest of what "works".




So to sum up (the "lengthiness"  ).... I'd appreciate if you go back and copy all your posts meanwhile into a Word doc and delete them from the forum. Then, put a link here to the Word doc when you begin to actually SHARE the RR approach.

Is that Ok? (If you feel you must contact me privately about that, you know my e-mail address  )

I hope you understand, I am simply trying to juggle everyone's best interest - and the good of the community, which is the foremost priority in GYE.
Thanks.

Dear 2B,

I respect that you have an agenda that you think works but why are you presenting here? You and I probably agree that the AA and SA literature is not Toras Moshe but it is the only thing that has worked for me and it has been painful and at times quite discouraging for me to see your postings.

While it is legitimate to debate "approaches" at an Aguda conference or Nefesh convention I personally don't feel that it is appropriate on a site where we come to share our guts with each other. If I want to learn more about "your approach" I'll read a book or go to a conference but that is not why I am here. I'm here to share my guts with you and to hear you share yours with me. Who knows, maybe you would find it more liberating, in a way, rather than having to resort to "private messages" and "emails" with Guard and others. Hey, we're already in a virtual environment using made up names how much more private do we have to be?

-Yosef 

Rage ATM wrote on 08 Jan 2010 04:59:


Rage, thanks for asking. The answer to your question is quite simple. I have no reason to think that shlachter's approach doesn't work. On the contrary I think that he's a very smart man and I assume that he would have a very high success rate. I was addressing Dov who knows very well that telling people to masturbate twice a week is not the only way.

Here's the big difference between a Torah attitude and a non-Torah attitude. If you have a non-Torah attitude then anything that will get the job done is legitimate. If you have a Torah attitude, then such an approach is only legitimate if there's no other choice. You can't be mechalel shabbos to save a life if you can do it without being mechalel shabbos. You most definitely can't tell someone to eat chometz on pesach if you have a different option. That's my understanding of the Creator's view on the matter and I think you would agree that it's not silly at all. If you feel that I misunderstood you, please clarify.

Deleting your own posts - a feeling so liberating. You should try it one time.

It's a mishna, I think... Something about a pile of stones. Even if it's a safek if there's anyone there, and safek if he's Jewish, and safek if he's any dead or alive... Mechalelin es haShabbos. We see that even the slightest chance is not taken with life.

However, as Tomim pointed out to me yesterday, just because the "SA book" says that if we don't follow the program we'll surely be dead, doesn't mean we have to take that literally in every case, to the point of Chilul Shabbos. Each case would have to be judged individually by a Posek, and in most cases I am sure it would not be Pikuach Nefesh. However, there may be extreme cases where this is indeed the case. I know one guy who was so addicted, he fell asleep at the wheel at 3 AM after one of his late night excursions to bad places, and another time had a gun pulled on him in these low places. Maybe for such a guy, who was already seeing success in the group and felt that if he misses it on Shabbos he'll go back to his old ways and be dead before he knows it, maybe for him a Rav would agree that it constitutes Pikuach nefesh.

battleworn wrote on 10 Jan 2010 12:15:
The only way I am aware of to have a good chance to do the right thing is to ask my Best Friend for help. So, may Hashem help me out right now, to do the right thing to be of some help to anyone who wants it. If you want to prove your point - or if I want to prove mine - my experience tells me that the whole thing is a waste of time.

Tomim2b - Thanks for sharing about your experience with that fellow in NA and in SA, yourself. That kind of thing does folks like me a lot of good and may be good for you, too. Thanks. My experience bears out what Yosef suggested, that sharing our insides, our hearts with eachother, is precious. In fact, it is likely the only thing that matters. That can't be done when we have something to prove, no matter how pure our intentions. The heart just doesn't seem to open.
Sharing our opinions is different than this. Mainly, I guess, because it is not about ourselves, but about others or other things. It can lead to a contentious and withering atmosphere, which negates our recovery because it pits my ego against the ego of others. That has been my experience, for whatever it's worth. If you feel otherwise, I have nothing to say but "go for it".
Discussing 'shittas of recovery' is very important to many people, but I have not met anyone doing well in recovery who has had the time or need to actually make that a major occupation of theirs. Thank G-d, I have so far been able to share about your RR without arguing - I hope. I tried to share what I have seen in SA with you, period. If I came across as opinionated and argumentative I am very sorry.
If you feel that posting the RR material is of benefit to you personally, I say "more power to you". If you feel it's needed for others, nu, it seems lke Guard has made a good point, but you did, too. Hatzlocha in doing whatever is best.

Yaakov_schwartz - I remember you posting (a long time ago) about your awareness of diabetes and the medical field in general, and how it is very clear to you that addiction is not at all like diabetes or other diseases. I hope I got your point right.
Whenever people who are not in 12 step recovery have a bone to pick with 12 step recovery, I wonder why it matters so much to them. I presume you are concerned for the neshamos and time of those who may choose to involve themselves with 12 step recovery for their problem.
Instead of arguing about anything at all, I want to ask you if you feel you understand firsthand what it is like to be an addict? How much experience do you have with living a lifestyle that does not jive with what you are absolutely sure that you really believe. Of course, I'm not talking about chazals about it, or your opinion about it, or about others you have seen with these problems. Only about you. Have you ever been shown that the way you are living is actually insane, or been so ashamed that you had to hide from all others the greater part of what filled your mind all day most days?
Please see that I am not saying any of the above with a, "HUH?!", after it. I'm not trying to prove anything at all about you or about anybody. I am really just asking to understand, that's all. If you have had all these experiences, then I understand you addressing this issue. If you have not, then I don't really understand it at all. Please know that it's not that I think you should not be addressing it - I simply do not understand the relevance and do not understand why you are even interested in the subject. I'd love to meet you one of these days, and feel pretty sure that - especially if you didn't know I was Dov - we'd hit it off great and become fast friends in Torah and yiras Shomayim.