ieeyc wrote on 21 Mar 2018 14:23:

Hi ieeyc,I pray the following prayer:I try to think twice before posting. If you ever noticed that I made a mistake (not talking about spelling mistakes), please call me out for it, either on the forums or privately. I will gladly explain my point of view and retract my post as needed.

I personally don't think the Thank You button was meant to just show appreciation for the person taking the time to post. I think it is meant to show you appreciate the contents of the post even if you disagree with it, however you feel it was helpful. I left you a thank you on this post, since I agree with the fact that people need to be Mentchen.

By the way, I have upped your karma a few times already, only to see it drop right back. I think people are taking your signature message too literally and trying to help you work on your humility. Perhaps you might want to remove that signature.

Regarding a different post that you mentioned, that people are using statements of Rabbonim in error to support their posts. I just wanted to point out that Halacha, especially in this area, is never black and white. What could be Mutar L'chatichilla for someone, can be Assur for someone else or even for the same person at a different time. 

Keep on posting, Hatzlocha Rabba!

i want to comment on a lot of things here but my computer is not working well 
but i wish you all good luck in listening to what others say ......    :puke:

workingmyprogram wrote on 21 Mar 2018 17:48:

Firstly, you're making this personal and you're making assumptions about Cordnoy. For someone who's barely been on this site, you're certainly barking up the wrong tree. Cordnoy is one of the pillars of GYE, and although he never asked me to do this, I can vouch for his reliability and wisdom and recovery. Moving on...

I trust that what you are saying is honest. I trust that you believe you had missionizing attempts made on you in SA and The Meadows. The reason why those experiences don't matter much, if at all, to me is because I have been in SA for over three years and I have never had anyone try to missionize me. In fact, I met a guy from SAA who I knew was Christian, but eventually realized that he was a J for J. I stopped talking to him (for unrelated reasons) but even he didn't try and missionize me! What happened to you was an isolated incident. I like the pizza example before. Just because one person got food poisoning from pizza does not mean that all pizza will give you food poisoning. 

Also, I know many people who went to The Meadows (one of my closest friends in recovery went there) and I have never heard of people getting missionized there. Again, not disagreeing with you, just highlighting that the experience you had was an isolated experience.

Dude, is that a nice way of responding after someone shares there experience? To say, "well your experience doesn't mean much to me because xyz".  Why don't you try "thanks for sharing" instead.  You've been in SA for 3 years so you should know that not everything everyone shares about is necessary directly applicable to you, but it doesn't mean we can't learn from their experience and we certainly don't tell them that "their experience doesnt mean much to me". I get that you hold SA very dear to your heart and are trying to defend it, but also see that I'm not throwing away SA or insulting the program. I'm just saying that there are things to watch out for. Based on my experience that is a fact that will never change. Sorry if you dont like that, but try appreciating what I'm saying instead of dismissing it because you dont feel it applies to you. 

lionking wrote on 21 Mar 2018 17:54:

thank you lk but please keep your karmas to yourself ,dont need em but your intentions were kind,see i learnt how to talk tough also,
,if anyone knows how to remove the thank you box from my post like berdichev did to his posts  id appreciate it

im sorry for speaking so tough ,im bothered by s/o this morning who acused me of immaturity in a private message  regarding the karmas, , this person is the king of immaturity , you should only see some of his posts ,BH you dont know who im talking about so im free to vent, thank you for your post L.k. its food for thought ,hatzlacha!

ieeyc wrote on 21 Mar 2018 21:15:


It's fine. Thanks for the apology in the next post.
If I tell you how to remove the Thank You button, Do I get a karma?

Look, I think this topic is hitting on a very sensitive chord for me. I never really shared with anyone how deceiving and horrible it feels to have people you trust, such as your own sponsor, challenge and ridicule your religious beliefs and then try and replace yours with their own. Looking back, it's clear to me that what I experienced was totally unethical and I equate it with a form of abuse (at the very least a huge transgression of boundaries). So when I come on here to share my experience and someone suggests that I could be making up stories, or tries to minimize my experience, it's actually very hurtful. I'm not trying to be a drama queen, but I feel like it's my responsibility to prevent what happened to me from happening to others. After The Meadows, I seriously considered giving up Yiddishkeit completely. I was even listening to Christian music for Gd's sake. This was due to all the anti Jewish messages I received. But then again, I made myself a target. They saw I was vulnerable, I was asking questions, and they decided to go for it.  I will be the first to admit that others may have had different experiences there. And I'm sure a persons experience with SA depends a lot on where they go to meetings. I started meetings in Isreal 10 years ago and never had the "missionary" issues, although the underlying Christian view point of lust was still being promoted of course. Once I got back to America and the meetings were mostly goyim, this is when it started. But I'll admit it's probably not the norm and hasn't been a constant issue for me, nor am I trying to portray it as one. However, even once is too much. To call these people "missionaries" is to inaccurately describe what they do. These are NOT professional people out to get us, who incorporate every conversation with their message. These are regular people in the meetings, who genuinely care about us, become close to us, and then after a while (sometimes even months) gently bring up how believing in the J man works for them. In my experience, once they bring it up once and they see you don't argue with them, this invites them to bring it up again and again.  This is very subtle and most people wouldn't be able to label these guys as missionaries because it's so subtle.  The point is, SA was not started by Jews, and therefore we can't control the message nor the membership. We need live groups for Jews that promote a Jewish perspective of how to deal with this struggle and that is only open to frum yidden who share our beliefs and sensitivities.

workingmyprogram wrote on 21 Mar 2018 21:39:

I like this post, although I disagree with the endin'. (I don't know if you were referrin' to me in the beginnin', but I'd just like to repeat that I never suggested that you made up the story; rather that it's an outlier.)

And that is why I disagree with the end. You say a few times, they do this, or they act subtly, etc. That is where our disagreement lies. I do not think that the pattern is there. And that is because of all the accumulative (sp) experiences of the people here. And that is why I don't think there needs to be that danger sign before sendin' someone to SA.
And sir, we can argue and have different opinions; I respect that.

Most of the followin' I will be repeatin' from Dov, but I might not be completely accurate, for He is much deeper than me, as I am extremely superficial in my understandin'.

Roy k. was one of SA's starters and he had religious tendencies; they came out towards the end and that is why he was booted out. SA is the most irreligious organization out there. There are no leaders and there is no agenda, other than livin' a life of recovery - bein' free from our tendencies. (There is a huge machlokes goin' on in an email thread if it is "victory over," or "freedom from," but I will leave that to the philosophers and chachamim.) Again, I am not bein' dismissive of your experience, and by the way, I feel terrible about it that you went thru that, but I don't think at all that this is a concern. Why? Because of all the years of talkin' to experts and rabbanim and askanim and people includin' myself who consistently went to meetings.

And regardin' your last point, that obviously is the impetus for GYE to start PA (or at least one of the reasons). But, I will say somethin' that I have written about many times before here on the forum and in emails and on the phone (and that doesn't make it right), and that is that I have spoken to many fellows who go to SA meetings in Lakewood and Brooklyn, consistin' mainly of frum yidden, and after attendin' many times and obtainin' a (frum) sponsor, you know what happens? They stop goin' to minyan. They learn less. Mitzvos take a back seat, until some start with the calls on Shabbos, for its pikuach nefesh. I have spoken to Dov and others about this, and while they concurred with me that I am not entirely off base, they were not add concerned as me. I'd like for there to be an asterisk by frum SA meetings that they should be on guard. 

We can talk about it here; recovery is a very intense issue....emotions get riled up. Let's discuss calmly.

You don't like SA meetin's with gentiles; I don't like them with Jews. God speed!

As long as it's not hittin' on a sensitive cord!

workingmyprogram wrote on 21 Mar 2018 21:39:

This is a message that is much more digestible. The change of tone is appreciated. I still maintain my convictions, but I am sorry for what happened to you. I just hope that you don't cast all of SA into one light.

workingmyprogram wrote on 28 Apr 2017 18:18:


Someone pressed 'replay'?
2 sweet guys!

Markz wrote on 22 Mar 2018 02:44:

That was a real nice thread. Thanks for bringin' that back.

cordnoy wrote on 22 Mar 2018 03:17:

Wow, I was much less of grouch back then lol. 

ieeyc wrote on 21 Mar 2018 17:15:
if anyone knows how to remove the thank you box from my post like berdichev did to his posts  id appreciate it
lionking wrote:
He requested to close his account. So there isn't any user set up anymore, which is why you can't thank his posts.

ieeyc(alias Marka which is osiyos Karma)wrote:
what exactly are you hinting ?